McGwire a HOFer?

[GiantsFanatic]

Just stating a fact. If you think I'm being racist, than your entitled to your opinion because I'm not. If I was racist I wouldn't be supporting McGwire who happens to be white.

[HollywoodLeo]

The insinuation that a league full of white guys (ie not black or Latino) is "weak competition" is not a fact, it's an opinion...an opinion that is racist in nature if you ask me.

You support McGwire because you know that if you don't all the Bonds haters will come out of the woodworks and point out your hypocracy.

You also know you can do so even in this line of debate because McGwire played against the superior black/latino players that Babe Ruth didn't...

[GiantsFanatic]

Think whatever you wana think.

I supported McGwire because I believe in innocent till proven guilty, not because the bonds hater will call me a hypacrite.

I'm sorry that you dont like facts.

[HollywoodLeo]

Think whatever you wana think.

I supported McGwire because I believe in innocent till proven guilty, not because the bonds hater will call me a hypacrite.

I'm sorry that you dont like facts.

I'm sorry, but insinuating that a group of white guys is "weak competition" is not fact, it's opinion. And an assinine opinion at that.

[nyjunc]

Playing against a weak competition does give you an edge, he never played against the negro leagues nor the latino players. He also happen to play in a media friendly era, where the media only wrote positive stories, nothing negative.

Btw Mcgwire never admitted of taking any steroids, and till this day there hasn't been a positive steriod test on him.

There were alot fewer teams back then and he competition was not weak. Was the competition Wille mays played w/ weak b/c there weren't foreign players? of course not, Babe dominated his competition unlike any other player in baseball history.

[DirtyKash]

Babe Ruth is a HOFer based on the fact that he outhomered entire teams by himself.

[GiantsFanatic]

So let me get this straight, so its ok for you guys to criticize Bonds and McGwire without any legit evidence, nothing but assumptions.

But when I critize Ruth and others you guys get all worked up and accuse me of being racist!? When I did not indicate anything to do with race.

[Slyder]

So let me get this straight, so its ok for you guys to criticize Bonds and McGwire without any legit evidence, nothing but assumptions.

But when I critize Ruth and others you guys get all worked up and accuse me of being racist!? When I did not indicate anything to do with race.

Long run it wouldn't have mattered. You wouldnt have seen that much of a great influx of players to limit what Babe did. Every player wasnt Bob Gibson, Jackie Robinson. plus there werent as many teams, so demand was much lower and you didn't have teams force to run out 10 different starting pitchers because everyone past their #3 SUCKED.

The only thing Babe did wrong was honestly loved to party but he still would have hit for 700+ homers and still turned baseball on its ear. To believe there was "that many" great players that would have kept him from blasting moon shots is rather short sighted on any account.

[Slyder]

Babe Ruth is a HOFer based on the fact that he outhomered entire teams by himself.

Sometimes 2-3 whole teams combined.

[HollywoodLeo]

So let me get this straight, so its ok for you guys to criticize Bonds and McGwire without any legit evidence, nothing but assumptions.

But when I critize Ruth and others you guys get all worked up and accuse me of being racist!? When I did not indicate anything to do with race.

Are you seriously that naive?

You do not realize how insinuating a league of nothing but white guys is "weak competition" so weak that one of the greatest players in the history of the game "doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame" is racist in any way?

Are you saying it's not possible to have racist sentiments towards white people?

Are we not a race?

And, for the record, I'm not saying you are a racist. I don't know you well enough to know whether or not you are. I'm merely stating that your remarks on Babe Ruth and his eligability for the HOF is a racist sentiment.

[Slyder]

So let me get this straight, so its ok for you guys to criticize Bonds and McGwire without any legit evidence, nothing but assumptions.

But when I critize Ruth and others you guys get all worked up and accuse me of being racist!? When I did not indicate anything to do with race.

Ummmmmm

Playing against a weak competition does give you an edge, he never played against the negro leagues nor the latino players. He also happen to play in a media friendly era, where the media only wrote positive stories, nothing negative.

Btw Mcgwire never admitted of taking any steroids, and till this day there hasn't been a positive steriod test on him.

First off I never said McGwire took steroids but he did have Androstenedione and admitted to taking it, but was not banned by Baseball AT THAT TIME.

What is Androstenedione? Well Wikipedia lists the supplement as:
Andro was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire, but it is unknown (and unknowable) to what extent andro was responsible for McGwire's exceptional performance. The supplement is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and hence from the Olympic Games.

On March 12, 2004, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was introduced into the Senate. It amended the Controlled Substance Act to place both anabolic steroids and prohormones on a list of controlled substances, making possession of the banned substances a federal crime. The law took effect on January 20, 2005.

On April 11, 2004, the United States Food and Drug Administration banned the sale of Andro, citing that the drug poses significant health risks commonly associated with steroids.

Secondly that in bold IS RACIST. You are inferring that whites are inferior as a whole over blacks and latinos with your statements. You may not have meant it that way but thats how it reads.

Theres a old saying that the eyes are the doorway to the soul and the truth. With the way McGwire acted before Congress (never looked in anyones eyes, just read from the paper) and the Andro stuff he wont be a first ballot hall of famer, he will get in just wont be like Ozzie and others on the first ballot.

[GiantsFanatic]

Are you seriously that naive?

You do not realize how insinuating a league of nothing but white guys is "weak competition" so weak that one of the greatest players in the history of the game "doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame" is racist in any way?

Are you saying it's not possible to have racist sentiments towards white people?

Are we not a race?

And, for the record, I'm not saying you are a racist. I don't know you well enough to know whether or not you are. I'm merely stating that your remarks on Babe Ruth and his eligability for the HOF is a racist sentiment.

I never said the league had weak competition, I'm just stating a fact that if HOF voters/fans who wont put players like McGwire and Bonds in the HOF based on "competive advantage card" than they should re-think, because you have had guys like Gaylord Perry who used all kinds of shit so he can get an extra spin on his ball, Ruth who did not play against the latins and negro leagues, and also in era where the media only wrote POSITIVE news, how the hell are we suppose to know what happened back than? If thats not having an advantage than I dont know what is.

Quit playing race card, because I'm not racist, if I was i wouldn't be defending McGwire, i would be defending Bonds only.

And about Andro, so what he took it when it was legal, it became illegal in 04 which is 2 years after he retired. And if the fans/media are going to hold a grudge against him, than thats pretty pathetic IMO.

[nyjunc]

So let me get this straight, so its ok for you guys to criticize Bonds and McGwire without any legit evidence, nothing but assumptions.

But when I critize Ruth and others you guys get all worked up and accuse me of being racist!? When I did not indicate anything to do with race.

We have alot more than assumptions when it comes to both Bonds and Mcgwire. Both have admitted it one way or the ohter- bonbds though leaked GJ testimony and McGwire w/ his embarrassing display in front of Congress.

[catman]

As a medical professional, I will tell you that Andro was taken by many players to help them heal up from the little nagging injuries they suffer regularly. Strains, sprains, pulled-muscles, etc are all aided to heal by supplements like Andro.
Now, I'll change gears -- To say that Babe Ruth did not face the best competition because he didn't face foreigners or blacks is likely correct. He did, however, dominate the league he played in. He was the best player of his time, and is enshrined for that reason.
Willie Mays did not face a lot of foreign-born players, but he, like Ruth, dominated his league and is usually listed among the top 5 outfielders of all times. He played better than his competition at the time he was playing and is enshrined for his play.
McGwire and Bonds (and Sosa) have dominated the power stats for the past decade or so in the NL. McGwire and Bonds have never had positive tests for any substance that was banned when they were tested for it. Neither has been suspended for breaking any of baseball's rules (as Sosa has due to his corked bat). I feel that both will be enshrined eventually, possibly not on the first ballot due to the rumors and inuendos surrounding them. Neither Bonds or McGwire has been cleared of the wrong-doing and this will work against them as well.

[HollywoodLeo]

I never said the league had weak competition,

Uhh, then what do you call this?

Playing against a weak competition does give you an edge, he never played against the negro leagues nor the latino players.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. You are saying that he had an "edge" due to playing against weak competition.

Or were you talking about his little league days?

I'm just stating a fact that if HOF voters/fans who wont put players like McGwire and Bonds in the HOF based on "competive advantage card" than they should re-think, because you have had guys like Gaylord Perry who used all kinds of shit so he can get an extra spin on his ball,

You have a pretty good point on that one.

Ruth who did not play against the latins and negro leagues,

So the **** what? Neither did Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gherigh or a plethera of other greats from that time. Should we banish them all from the HOF?

and also in era where the media only wrote POSITIVE news, how the hell are we suppose to know what happened back than? If thats not having an advantage than I dont know what is.

Unless you're suggesting the media fabricated false statistics I do not understand what bearing this has on anything.

Quit playing race card,

Don't like it when the "race card" is used against you, eh?

because I'm not racist,

Again, I never said you were. I said your remarks on Babe Ruth and your opinion as to why he shouldn't be in the HOF is a racist sentiment.

if I was i wouldn't be defending McGwire, i would be defending Bonds only.

You're defending McGwire because you're not a hypocrite. At least you're consistant.

And about Andro, so what he took it when it was legal, it became illegal in 04 which is 2 years after he retired. And if the fans/media are going to hold a grudge against him, than thats pretty pathetic IMO.

I agree with this. McGwire was following the rules put forth in front of him at the time.