The Cream of the Crop: Top Five Catcher Edition

[Providence A's]

Then how can you say a player is the best or is great because of his individual stats. If a player does not help a team win consistently enough to be a playoff team, how can he be the best.

I agree with you there as I've always thought, for example, the league MVPs should not only have individual stats, but also help their team perform well (Tejada over A-Rod in 2002 as the A's made the playoffs and Texas sucked). It should be a combination of individual and team success. Someone like Mirabelli, while a servicable backup, just happened to be on the team that won the WS...it had more to do with the team than him, whereas David Ortiz had the individual numbers and truly helped the team...one can argue the Sox might not have won without him.

[Fishercat]

Although the Sox were an extraordinary situation in that they needed almost every player on their 25-man roster (hell, Curtis Leskanic was a post-season hero in one game, Roberts had key SB(s), Mirabelli has some unique value as you not only lose a little bit of pop off the bench but you also lose the value of Tim Wakefield as he is far worse with Wakefield catching than Mirabelli. However, as I said, extraordinary situation, agree with Providence on basic point, we're agreeing too much, universe will collapse unto itself, etc.

[CincyRedsFan30]

You are clueless.

[Saber]

Wins and losses can't possibly be the net effect of team's individual performances. It's about heart and a winning attitude. That's why Clay Bellinger is one of the greatest Yankees ever. Anyone who thinks differently is Communist.

[CincyRedsFan30]

^^^ Rofl

[joek]

Although the Sox were an extraordinary situation in that they needed almost every player on their 25-man roster (hell, Curtis Leskanic was a post-season hero in one game, Roberts had key SB(s), Mirabelli has some unique value as you not only lose a little bit of pop off the bench but you also lose the value of Tim Wakefield as he is far worse with Wakefield catching than Mirabelli. However, as I said, extraordinary situation, agree with Providence on basic point, we're agreeing too much, universe will collapse unto itself, etc.

You make very valid points, points that emphasize the team concept. Everyone on the roster has a role to play in achieving success for the team. The players who help their team the most, win the most games. when high stat players play for losing teams, the other players get blamed. when the good stat guy, but not high stat guy wins consistently, everyone says, look who he played with. It was the juys he played with. That is the point, it is everyone on the team who determine wins and losses. My point and opinion being that the best players win the most often over their careers.

[browntown653]

Your selection of the losing pitcher says alot about why your team has had so little success for several decades now.

Interesting, didn't know CRF was the Reds General Manager and had such a huge impact on the team.

[joek]

I agree with you there as I've always thought, for example, the league MVPs should not only have individual stats, but also help their team perform well (Tejada over A-Rod in 2002 as the A's made the playoffs and Texas sucked). It should be a combination of individual and team success. Someone like Mirabelli, while a servicable backup, just happened to be on the team that won the WS...it had more to do with the team than him, whereas David Ortiz had the individual numbers and truly helped the team...one can argue the Sox might not have won without him.

Here we see eye to eye. I can't fathom how any player can be an MVP unless he helps lead his team to success. One could argue however that Mirabelli may have meant more to the bosux than some other backup catcher and was a big part in being a personal catcher and providing some very big hits. Those feats may not have been ably performed by some other backup and could have meant the difference in making the playoffs and advancing to finally winning the WS. That is the crux of giving credit to winners. That is why the game is played.

[joek]

Interesting, didn't know CRF was the Reds General Manager and had such a huge impact on the team.

If he expresses the views of the way his team is run, that would explain it. My team is run to WIN, not for any individual to excel, but for the team to excel.

[browntown653]

I doubt there's a major league team that's run for the sole purpose of having a few players excel and little concern for winning.

[joek]

Possibly true. But there are players who play for themselves and care little for team success. There are also a few owners who don't wish to try to compete, but would rather live off revenue sharing and pocketing the money.

[Porter]

Jorge Posada isnt the best catcher in baseball right now. Nor i dont think hes in the top 5 based on his ACTUAL STATS. Notice where i didnt say on the basis of TEAM playoffs, pennants and WS Championships so you dont try and make this part of the conversation.

Players you could put in consideration:

Bengie Molina
Javy Lopez
Javier Valetin (who has better numbers than Larue right now)
AJ Pierzynski (2nd among Catchers in HRs, but .264 BA hurts him.)
Mauer (obviously)
LoDuca (although he doesnt bring much beyond the .301 BA)
Brandon Inge (even though hes now a util guy.)

[joek]

You may be totally correct using your stats and not including Posada. But since the game is played to reach the playoffs, win pennants and win WS, the stats you use do not tell who the real best players are. Now, if you wish to look at the game, by which players individual stats are best, your points may be valid.

[General]

*snore*

[browntown653]

If Jorge Posada was the catcher, first baseman, second baseman, third baseman, shortstop, entire outfield, entire rotation, and entire bullpen at once and the Yankees won the World Series, that's the only way you could justify the win method.