Joek...

[Cardinal Optimist]

Here is a post somebody made on another message board, It's about Robert Horry and Basketball but applies to pretty much the exact same thing.

One person asked: "Success in most team sports is determined by championships, not individual achievements."

To his response is:

You're changing the topic in a subtle but important way.

Your post that led to this was about the "overall success" of a player's career. Now you've modified that to "success in team sports," which isn't quite the same. "Overall" success, to me, would include both team and individual accomplishments. Why else would you say "overall," if you didn't mean to include everything?

While you're on any team, sure, your goal is to try to help that team win a championship, and your own numbers don't matter. If you use the code phrase "success in team sports," then you're pretty much talking about being on a winning team, by definition.

But players can't choose what teams they play for, and most end up playing for several throughout their careers. So how do we assess "overall success"? Through things players can control -- for instance, how well they perform -- or through things they basically can't control -- for example, like which superstar teammates they wind up playing with?

I'm sure almost everyone here plays pickup basketball (or at least used to). Sometimes I'm a "role player" on a good team that runs the table for a couple of hours, my contributions amounting to a few offensive rebounds or decent defensive stands. Other times, my teams don't do as well, but I personally have a better day. Am I more of an "overall success" in the first case? I certainly don't feel that way, but maybe I just don't fit your definition of "team player."

It's worth noting that this conceit about championships is unique to the NBA. No one was saying that Walter Payton or Ray Borque weren't fantastic players before they finally got their titles at the ends of their careers. In fact, the focus was more on the bad luck they've had, playing on a lot of teams that were very good but not quite good enough. Similarly, no one is saying now that Barry Bonds isn't a terrific player (unless of course they are disqualifying him for steroids, but that's a diffrerent issue).

And similarly, no one gets themselves worked up over "role players" who have a few Super Bowl or World Series rings to their credit, through being in the right place at the right time. Every time this topic comes up, I ask whether Yogi Berra should be considered the greatest baseball player of all time. No one ever responds.

The argument that is often advanced for why the NBA should be considered differently, with championships being essential for greatness, is that it allows for more individual dominance than the other major sports. That's true, to some extent, and it's particularly tempting to apply it when talking about superstars from the same era, the most common example being Russell versus Chamberlain.

But a role player? Come on. Even if the NBA does allow stars to dominate more, that argument doesn't apply to the guy who averages only a few shots attempts per game.

The main reason to focus on championships is to allow fans of championship teams to assert their automatic superiority over fans of teams that have not won titles. If you'd be honest with yourself for a moment, you would see that that is exactly your motivation. By aligning yourself with the Lakers, you have earned that right, and clearly the Suns and their fans will never catch up in anyone's lifetime.

It is your perogative to continue lording that over us, and I'm sure you will. You haven't let up in the several years I've been on this board, and I don't expect it to stop. But please don't add insult to injury by insulting our intelligence with ridiculous claims about what a great player Robert Horry is. Anyone not blinded by the glare of "his" past championships can see Horry for what he is -- a good player who performs well under pressure and has had a remarkable knack for getting onto the same squad with the league's best players.

[Hmark6]

Interesting. Link it please, I really want to believe this is him. This would discredit everything he has ever posted about the WIN Method. I'd love to hear him explain this one, if these are his words.

[General]

Looks like the joek's on joek.

[love_that_reefer]

This is clearly not Joke's work. Maybe a Joke clone but not Joke. It has a different voice and the way he referred to Bonds makes it clear that it is not Joke.

[Fishercat]

I'm thinking it's a response to joek (not directly, rather to a similar situation) taken from another forum to respond to him

[Saber]

The blame for everything here lies aquarely on RLA68, who INVITED him here in the first place. Way to go, RLA.

[General]

RLA's rep-down. Not literally though, he's a cool guy.

[Providence A's]

why does it seem that everyone has joek on the brain? you guys need to get out more

[Fishercat]

Hey, I get out plenty.

I have a job, and friends, and a li...holy crap, what is that bright thing in the sky???

[General]

It's the comet of the Babe...comes around every 86 years..the year after the s0x win a WS.

[Fishercat]

Wait, he was the most dominating baseball force ever and he has a comet. So unfair.

[General]

And the Yanks got him for peanuts. :P

[Fishercat]

Well, they got money and...yeah, it was peanuts. Boston got him back though, and that's all that matters, the Yankees only had him for several years. He began and ended in Boston.

[General]

We did have him for his best years.

[joek]

To put this thread in perspective. The only posts on ANY message boards I have ever posted on, where in the baseball forums. I have NEVER posted in basketball, hockey, football, etc forums. I have on rare occasion posted in one or two political forums. But the left wing losers of lifes lottery, couldn't stomach me and truth.

What is truly sad, is the threads named after me. There is absolutely no reason. You either see the light of the WIN METHOD or live in the darkness of other beliefs. To each their own.

The post by Sabre in this thread demeaning RLA for asking me to this forum is fascinating, and clearly addresses the kind of man Sabre is. Sabre is at ease when unchallenged, but when he is challenged, and consistently made a fool of, he whines, cries and snivels. Many posters, may not like me, respect me, or even want me here. That is the right of each and every one. Some believe in my views, many do not. That is the way it should be. Some debate, and discuss things with me openly in the forum, via PMs, and/or emails, some ignore me, that is the way it should be. But when anyone whines that any poster should not be allowed to express their views, because they may be different that theirs, that anyone is what you find at the bottom of the barrel and/or under a rock.