Good thing we didn't draft Jared Weaver!

[OBBoltsFan]

Baseball is a great game because of the intangibles the "x" factor, and stats do not account for those......so if you're going to base everything on stats.......just play nintendo since that's all a video game is based on.

No, I'll just keep enjoying baseball for what it is and appreciating such players as Ozzie for their likability and flashy plays. That does not mean I have to agree with him being in the hall of fame, and I may have my own opinion of his value to a ballclub. Either way, I like Ozzie and thought he was spectacular in the field, but I don't think that merits the "best SS of all time" talks I've heard before, and I'm allowed to have that opinion without playing nintendo video games

Leo, Ozzie is the measuring stick for any SS of the future to live up to in terms of razzle dazzle webgems, and I feel honored to have watched Khalil perform simlar stunts. There is no way in hell I take Greene for granted. He's a top 15 SS already when rounding out both sides of the plate and field, and he's only going to get better I'd assume. I simply feel tha he'll never reach the spectrum that Hall has seemingly already reached, and that Hall would be an upgrade at the position. Then again, fans would be outraged, so the idea has become more and more meaningless by all of your guys' comments, and I can agree that the idea is a tad silly now when looking at it from those views.

I just simply think that our team would be better with Hall at short and Ensberg at third than Greene at short and Hall at third, that's all.

[OBBoltsFan]

OK.....

Decent #'s........for a SS.........in the 70's and 80's ........lol you're talking about something like .270 / 7 / 60.........SS's weren't known for hitting yet....that was not what they were expected to do much of.......

As far as his lifetime fielding pct. he got to balls that nobody else could even think about getting to, this alone gave him more opportunities for errors. As I said, if you didn't see him play you don't really know how great he was. You can't live your baseball life via stats.......They DO NOT tell the whole story

-NL record for fielding percentage in a year, .987 (1987 & 1991)
-NL record for least errors in one year, 8. (1991)
-NL record for games played at shortstop in a career, over 2,500. (broken in 1993)
-2nd to Luis Aparicio for most games played at shortstop in a ML career.
-NL record for most years leading the league in fielding percentage, 7.
-ML record for most Assists in a season, 621 in 1980.
-ML record for Assists in a career, over 8300. (broken in 1993)
-ML record for Double Plays in a career, over 1560. (broken in 1995)
-NL record for 500 assists seasons with 8.
-Tied Honus Wagner with 16 consecutive 20-steal seasons.
-13 consecutive Gold Gloves awards, from 1980 to 1992.
-Voted MVP in 1985 NLCS.
-Runner-up for NL MVP in 1987, setting career highs in batting avg. (.303), RBIs (75), Runs (104), and hits (182).
-Selected to the NL All-Star team 15 times.
-In 1989, Sports Illustrated names Ozzie, the "Shortstop of the Decade."
-Collected 110 sacrifice hits during the 1980s. More than any other player.

Baseball is a great game because of the intangibles the "x" factor, and stats do not account for those......so if you're going to base everything on stats.......just play nintendo since that's all a video game is based on.

For the record, Omar Vizquel had 8 seasons with 8 or few errors, one being in the National Lague only last year (his first year in the NL) and has had 6 seasons with fielding percentages of at least .987, so those original feats you mentioned aren't that incredile to me, since I don't feel Omar Vizquel deserves the hall of fame either (but if Ozzie got in, he most certainly should also).

His stats on SBs and consistency (playing in all of those games) is very noteworthy though and perhaps worthy of a hall of fame debate, and I just may end up agreeing with you. The problem is I sort of discard all teh all star appearences just because of the fame factor that goes with it, even though I know I shouldn't because the voting was not as bad back then (but even managers and reporters can be biased I think).

I just think anyone that puts up worse collective numbers at shortstop than any of his peers at the same position should not be given a free card because of their spectacular defensive plays. I know you say that SSs didn't put up good nubmers then, but collectively they did not put up career numbers as miserable as Ozzie's I'd imagine, or there would be more shortstops even near Ozzie on the worst hitters of all time list.

[padrefanforever]

They aren't that incredible to you ......lol.....you have to give credit where it's due......in 100 years none of the stats we now know will be that incredible........good god man........

That's like saying that hitting 20 HR's during the era where baseballs were soft isn't incredible simply because someone hit more down the road....

Apples to apples........when Ozzie played, he was the best of the best. Simple as that....IMO only Alan Trammel was on par, and gets little credit because of how great Ozzie was....... I could give a shit about comparing him to players now or even 10 years ago, because they are playing a vastly different game, and IMO it's not a fair comparison.

You're allowed your opinion, but if regurgitating stats is all you have, and you never got to watch him play........then you might as well try and sell someone on the idea that Kobe Bryant is as good as Jordan in his prime....

[OBBoltsFan]

They aren't that incredible to you ......lol.....you have to give credit where it's due......in 100 years none of the stats we now know will be that incredible........good god man........

That's like saying that hitting 20 HR's during the era where baseballs were soft isn't incredible simply because someone hit more down the road....

Apples to apples........when Ozzie played, he was the best of the best. Simple as that....IMO only Alan Trammel was on par, and gets little credit because of how great Ozzie was....... I could give a shit about comparing him to players now or even 10 years ago, because they are playing a vastly different game, and IMO it's not a fair comparison.

You're allowed your opinion, but if regurgitating stats is all you have, and you never got to watch him play........then you might as well try and sell someone on the idea that Kobe Bryant is as good as Jordan in his prime....

Kobe's stats don't compare to Jordon's either way when considering MVPs and championships and slam dunk titles. But that's besides the point; the point is I did get to watch Ozzie play for quite some time and I'm not arguing the fact that he was the best of his era... DEFENSIVELY. Even when comparing his offensive numbers THEN to his competition THEN, it is still very poor production from even that position.

Either way, he is a great SS and perhaps you're right, is deserving of the hall of fame. I just don;t understand why Ozzie gets so much love when there are players like Omar Vizquel with better career fielding numbers and batting nubmers. I understand you: numbers aren't everything. But hell, niehter is how flashy you make a play look.

I'd take Vizquel over Ozzie if I was lucky enough to get either to play for my team, and that's with seeing Ozszie's amazing plays.

EDIT= Also, why do you act as if Ozzie Smith played so long ago? Give me a break man, he only retired a decade ago, it's not as if he was out there in the 60's. Omar put up equally impressive numbers at the same era, so neither is "incredible". To me, 75 hoemruns is incredible. Incredible is supernatural, someone destroying the competition around him. Ozzie was always the best, but most certainly not heads and shoulders above the competition, yet remained heads and shoulders BELOW what is expected from his batting competition.

[padrefanforever]

Kobe's stats don't compare to Jordon's either way when considering MVPs and championships and slam dunk titles. But that's besides the point; the point is I did get to watch Ozzie play for quite some time and I'm not arguing the fact that he was the best of his era... DEFENSIVELY. Even when comparing his offensive numbers THEN to his competition THEN, it is still very poor production from even that position.

Either way, he is a great SS and perhaps you're right, is deserving of the hall of fame. I just don;t understand why Ozzie gets so much love when there are players like Omar Vizquel with better career fielding numbers and batting nubmers. I understand you: numbers aren't everything. But hell, niehter is how flashy you make a play look.

I'd take Vizquel over Ozzie if I was lucky enough to get either to play for my team, and that's with seeing Ozszie's amazing plays.

EDIT= Also, why do you act as if Ozzie Smith played so long ago? Give me a break man, he only retired a decade ago, it's not as if he was out there in the 60's. Omar put up equally impressive numbers at the same era, so neither is "incredible". To me, 75 hoemruns is incredible. Incredible is supernatural, someone destroying the competition around him. Ozzie was always the best, but most certainly not heads and shoulders above the competition, yet remained heads and shoulders BELOW what is expected from his batting competition.

Boy you do like to argue don't you.....get a thought stuck in your head and there is no getting through to you at all is there ???

OK since you're a stat person.....and offense is what you're talking about .......here are some stats for you to chew on for the years these guys played in MLB at the same time.....I figure this is as good a cross cut as well get since it's the same time period.... 1989-1996 ...

Ozzie Smith BA .267 Omar Vizquel .260
Ozzie Slg. Pct. .339 Omar .324
Ozzie SB 177 Omar 116
Ozzie RS 559 Omar 447

So clearly Ozzie was far more productive with the bat and on offense as a whole, and this was including his decline due to age. Add to that the simple fact that every single SS coming into the league wanted to play the field like Ozzie since he was the best ever at the time, and you have why everyone is so high on him.... He was great.....arguably the greatest ever to that point in history.

For the record, I think Omar is a damn good SS.....and very underrated

[OBBoltsFan]

Boy you do like to argue don't you.....get a thought stuck in your head and there is no getting through to you at all is there ???

OK since you're a stat person.....and offense is what you're talking about .......here are some stats for you to chew on for the years these guys played in MLB at the same time.....I figure this is as good a cross cut as well get since it's the same time period.... 1989-1996 ...

Ozzie Smith BA .267 Omar Vizquel .260
Ozzie Slg. Pct. .339 Omar .324
Ozzie SB 177 Omar 116
Ozzie RS 559 Omar 447

So clearly Ozzie was far more productive with the bat and on offense as a whole, and this was including his decline due to age. Add to that the simple fact that every single SS coming into the league wanted to play the field like Ozzie since he was the best ever at the time, and you have why everyone is so high on him.... He was great.....arguably the greatest ever to that point in history.

For the record, I think Omar is a damn good SS.....and very underrated

When comparing Ozzie's career stats to Omar's Omar is clearly the better hitter. That's not an argument my friend, that's a fact.

And yes, you did get me to change my mind in agreeing with you that he should be a hall of famer (though It's close); I'm just not ready to call him even one of the top all around shortstops of all time.

[Fishercat]

If you're gonna talk Omar/Ozzie

I'd take Ozzie's defense any day of the week over Omar.

As for hitting, that's tough. Omar's numbers are better in the OBP/SLG spectrum, but he did play in a noticeably more offensive era.

[HollywoodLeo]

how many gold gloves does Omar Visquel have?

The guy isn't exactly a slouch on the field himself.

[Fishercat]

Of course he's not. He's just not on Smith's level.

[Rufio181]

Dont college players typically make it past the minors sooner than the high school draftees?

[padrefanforever]

When comparing Ozzie's career stats to Omar's Omar is clearly the better hitter. That's not an argument my friend, that's a fact.

And yes, you did get me to change my mind in agreeing with you that he should be a hall of famer (though It's close); I'm just not ready to call him even one of the top all around shortstops of all time.

I didn't compare career stats.........I compared a cross cut of time when they both played in the league with the same players, pitchers etc....and Ozzie is clearly the more productive player offensively........#'s don't lie, and you're a #'s guy.......so don't back away from what you like to jam down our throats

[padrefanforever]

hollywood........note that nobody has ever said Omar isn't a very very good SS......I'm just making a point with OBB that when both were playing at the same time........Ozzie's offensive #'s are better.........Whether you're surprised or not, this isn't debateable, and since OBB seems to be a stat guy....this whole debate should be over....but my guess is sadly it will continue....

[OBBoltsFan]

Of course he's not. He's just not on Smith's level.

Omar had a higher career fielding percentage than Ozzie's by a good bit (same for batting stats too). Not on Smith's "level" is exactly what I mean when I say Ozzie is pretty overated.

[OBBoltsFan]

hollywood........note that nobody has ever said Omar isn't a very very good SS......I'm just making a point with OBB that when both were playing at the same time........Ozzie's offensive #'s are better.........Whether you're surprised or not, this isn't debateable, and since OBB seems to be a stat guy....this whole debate should be over....but my guess is sadly it will continue....

Omar was young then man, come on, that's not rocket science.

[Providence A's]

I skimmed through some of this thread and all I want to say is that for the most part questioning why player X wasn't drafted instead of player Y because play X panned out and player Y hasn't is being a Monday morning QB so to speak. Not all prospects pan out. Yes, there are safer picks, but every player drafted for baseball has the risk attached with them that they might not reach their "potential."

A lot of it is luck...this isn't as bad as the Reds fan who brought up that they should have drafted Pujols...and that drafting Pujols makes Walt a genius...no one can really tell what is going to happen with prospects...that kind of thinking is ridiculous to me. If it were like the NFL or NBA where you are pretty much drafting players that are ready for the show, then it would be a different story.