Baltimore Orioles
Boston Red Sox
New York Yankees
Tampa Bay Rays
Toronto Blue Jays
Chicago White Sox
Cleveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
Kansas City Royals
Minnesota Twins
Houston Astros
LA Angels
Oakland Athleticss
Seattle Mariners
Texas Rangers
Atlanta Braves
Miami Marlins
New York Mets
Philadelphia Phillies
Washington Nationals
Chicago Cubs
Cincinnati Reds
Milwaukee Brewers
Pittsburgh Pirates
St. Louis Cardinals
Arizona Diamondbacks
Colorado Rockies
Los Angeles Dodgers
San Diego Padres
San Francisco GiantsValue Over Replacement Player, Baseball Prospectus stat, basically the amount of runs a player is better than the typical AAA callup for his position.
Value Over Replacement Player, Baseball Prospectus stat, basically the amount of runs a player is better than the typical AAA callup for his position.
http://strike3forums.com/forums/phot...pelbon2006.jpg
Then out of fairness to the others you will be Slagathor.
On the contrary, all too many people underate WINS, and give far too much credit for all the other useless stats. WINS are the reason the games are played, and a pitcher earning WINS for his team, is the single most important thing he can do in the game of baseball.Originally Posted by CrazyEights
When this thread was first started, I had no question Clemens should not be considered in the top five for the Cy Young, I still see it that way, now however, even more so.
Guys, if you want to know and/or learn anything about baseball, give up this ignorant man made stat crap.
Wins are not underrated on a team level... on an individual level, except for a starting pitcher (when compared to another similar starting pitcher with similar skills and stats shown during the season), wins are practically meaningless when rating an individual who is only part of the whole team that is producing the win or loss
As for Clemens for the Cy Young... he is dominant this year.. and we will see how it keeps up... but how much more dominant than Carpenter is he this year.... Carpenter is damn close in individual performance, yet benefits from a better all around team helping to produce wins....
I believe Carpenter WILL get this award... but I would not be against Clemens getting it with 15 or so wins, if his ERA is around 1.3 and if Carpenter wins 21 or 22 and his ERA goes back up to around 2.5... I do not think it will happen, but I would not argue it
Yeah...that should be aren't the toughest guys to get out.
My point was that as much as these players suck, Carpenter is still winning games.
Carpenter doesn't exactly have the scariest hitters backing him up. Nunez, Taguchi, Rodriguez, and Mabry are the tougest guys to get out, but despite that, Carpenter is still winning games.
This is all very nice and dandy, it really is...but the award winner is obvious, it's going to be Carpenter. Cy Young voters historically like wins and if you think they're going to pick a guy with 11 wins over a guy with 20 (so far), you're crazy. So unless Carpenter gets hurt in his next start and Clemens wins every one of his remaining starts, the voters will take Carpenter in a heartbeat.
I did a lot of good things as a sim league GM.
Ah, give me something clever to say here.
Browntown, my intent wasn't to say who will be the winner but who should be the winner if the voting was left up to me. Just opinion based.
I know, I hear you on that...I would personally vote for Clemens too.
I did a lot of good things as a sim league GM.
Ah, give me something clever to say here.
So in the 15 days since you originally posted this, your opinion has changed a littler bit as Carpenter has improved and Clemens hasn't done as well?? Carpenter has beaten Clemens twice now this season; that's gotta count for something.
And no, I'm not saying everyone can't have their own opinion, but it'd be ironic considering Clemens got one when he didn't deserve it in 2003.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it scares the hell out of me when anyone says Clemens deserves the Cy Young over at least several other candidates.
It has changed to some degree. To be honest, I would have to fully evaluate all statistics in comparison of the two pitchers before I would be comfortable with making my current assesment of my favorite for the award.
As for Carpenter beating Clemens, I am not personally taking that into consideration. They have faced each other twice, with one of those times Clemens leaving the game with an injury. So you have 1 valid game between them which Carpenter did pitch a hell of a game.... 1 game between them doesnt overshadow some of the dominant stats Clemens have shown over Carpenter and if the numbers of the matchups were reveresed, I would feel the same way. And to clarify, as a writer I believe that you should take a strong stance on an issue to create discussion which I feel I have successfully done, so mission accomplished.
I never meant to imply that was what you were saying.And no, I'm not saying everyone can't have their own opinion, but it'd be ironic considering Clemens got one when he didn't deserve it in 2003.
Mission accomplished indeed
I didn't mean to imply you did...I was trying to cover myself incase anyone said that after my post
The problem with that is, Carpenter STILL gets about 1.6-1.7 more runs per game than Clemens does. If Clemens got 3.57 runs every game, he'd have more wins then he has now since he has lost a lot of games where his team gave him no runs. Even if Rodriguez, Mabry, etc. aren't good, they are still around 1.6 runs better every game. Among the Top 40 ERA leaders, Clemens has the third worst run support on the list, only bettering Jarrod Washburn and Esteban Loaiza. Chris Carpenter, if I counted correctly, is 12th on the list of 40. Considering the difference in run support between the two is approximately twice as large as the ERA difference, it's logical Carpenter will have more wins. It's somewhat luck that Carpenter has so many more wins, bad for Clemens and good for Carpenter, but the RS helps.
http://strike3forums.com/forums/phot...pelbon2006.jpg
Then out of fairness to the others you will be Slagathor.
You know, I really don't think Clemens has any chance of winning it unless he can get up to 15 wins. 11 just isn't gonna cut it, even though wins suck as a stat.
Tell that to the teams who only go to the second season soley based on WINS. Tell that to the pitchers who try to WIN every game they start so that their team can WIN. Tell that to the pitchers who bust their butts, and have had and are having 20+ WIN seasons. tell that to all the 300+ WIN pitchers in the HOF.
WINS ARE THE ONLY STAT THAT COUNT!
Register To Reply
