Joe should stay

[BronxBomberz]

I wouldn't throw Brian Cashman under the bus. He has been trying to rebuild one of the best rotations the Yankees have ever had since Roger, Wells, and Pettitte departed the first time after the 2003 World Series.

And look at the moves he made. He brought in Javy Vazquez. Did anyone think he would flop as badly as he did? He brought in Kevin Brown who was coming off of a fantastic season. He brought in Carl Pavano, who took less money to come here than the Red Sox and Tigers offered. He traded for Randy Johnson, basically giving up nothing. Those were the RIGHT moves at the time. I can't fault him for that.

Plus, look at all the guys he has plucked off the scrap heap that found success here: Jon Lieber, Shawn Chacon, Aaron Small, Tanyon Sturtze. Without those guys we wouldn't have even made the playoffs in 2004 and 2005.

And now consider, since 2004 the Yankees, under Brian Cashman, have been stockpiling the best collection of young pitching talent in baseball, by far. The depth is amazing. Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Horne, Marquez, Garcia, Whelan, Sanchez, Melancon, Robertson, Cox, etc.

I think Brian Cashman has done a pretty good job for the Yankees since he has gained control, but I'm not blaming this on Torre either. I am blaming what the Yankees are now, which is still a darn fine team mind you, on Steinbrenner's organizational philosophy. Big stars, big contracts, old veterans. Correcting the mistakes of the past wasn't going to happen over night.

What happened to Chacon? Haven't heard his name in years He used to be good as a Yankee

[love_that_reefer]

Yes throw George and Cashman under the bus. They got Sheffield over Vlad, overpaid for Pavano when he had a losing a record, gave Randy Johnson that extension, Overpaid for Jaret Wright and Kyle Farnsworth, really overpaid for Roger Clemens, Kenny Lofton and the list goes on and on.

[Veovis]

1. Cashman wanted Vlad over Sheffield; Sheffield was George's idea and when Cashman traded him away he basically got Bobby Abreu, Sanchez, Whelan, and Claggett for him and a prospect who I believe is on the verge of quitting baseball. I'd say that's pretty good, wouldn't you?

2. How can you say he overpaid for Pavano when he offered less money than the Red Sox and Tigers? Clearly at the time Pavano was valued quite highly, despite his losing record. And come on Reefer, we all know win-loss records are misleading. Look at Red Ruffing before he came to the Yankees. I guess because he had a losing record before coming here meant he was awful, right? You can't judge a pitcher by his record.

3. Randy Johnson was supposed to be a sure fire ace, and the only way to get him was to give him an extension. Was he old? Yeah, but the Yankees had to make that trade. They HAD to. He helped us get to the playoffs in '05, and while he was awful in '06... hey... he still logged innings - a value unto itself. Again, Cashman traded him for some good guys that can really help this team going forward. We got Vizcaino for a year. Ohlendorf has been pretty good out of the pen. Alberto Gonzalez is going to be a great utility guy, etc.

4. Jaret Wright - he was a necessary arm. The 2004 pitching staff was a disaster and Wright was another potential piece. The upside to the move was pretty good if he could stay healthy. He couldn't, but he turned in a representable year for us in '06.

5. Kyle Farnsworth - another necessary arm. I agree his contract is pretty hefty, but considering we had just lost Tom Gordon, we needed someone to carry that load and Farnsworth was the best out there. It was a gamble that did not work out.

6. Roger Clemens - We were floundering. Was it waaaay too much money? Yeah, but he isn't getting all of it anyway. He was brought in to change the mentality of the team and provide a stable arm. He did both of those things. I don't see it as a bad move at all.

7. Kenny Lofton? Really? I don't remember paying Kenny all that much, and that's another move I think was sponsored by George.

8. Why were these moves necessary Reef? You act like there were other, better options. Were there? Vlad? Cashman agrees with you, but I think we need to look at it in a different light. Vlad is aging now. He is beat up. He can't play the field anymore. In other words, he is a DH now. Do we have room for another DH on this team? What about Matsui and Giambi? Do they then play the field where they are awful? Perhaps not signing Vlad wasn't such a bad move after all...

But really, these moves were necessary at the time because we did not have viable options in the farm system. George neglected it. He and his Tampa cronies pumped money into the FA Market instead. Only when Cashman gained full control did the Yankees start to really invest in player development again; we are beginning to see the results. But because we did not have viable options in our neglected farm system, the organization was forced these past five years to go to that FA market to plug holes. Where else could we replenish our losses? And as we both know, with prices the way they are, teams have to pay a premium for mediocre talent these days. I can't fault Cashman for that. I can praise him for changing things around here though.

[love_that_reefer]

1. Abreu had nothing to do with the Sheffield trade and neither is a better choice than Vlad so yes they dropped the ball.

2. Pavano was overpaid either way you look at it./ He had a losing record and wasn't a top notch pitcher. Just because he had a career year the year before doesn't make him good. Smart GMs knew better.

3. No you didn't HAVE trade for Randy. That's the whole point. I was all for the trade at the time but not for the extension. That's just dumb to give a guy an extension like that for that much at that age. He has no cartilage in his knee for christ's sake. Luis Vizcaino?

4. Jaret Wright did nothing for you guys execpt waste money. He was just like Pavano, overpaid after a career year. The whole body of work is what you need to look at. A necessary arm you never got.

5. Farnsworth again overpaid and was not the best out there. Everywhere this guy has gone it has been the same thing, he has no control. And to put him in the NY spotlight was another dumb idea.

6. You paid a shit ton for Clemens only to break down when it mattered most rather than going after a trade for a future solution to the problem. The Yankees waste money and make poor choices.

7. Lofton was just a bad idea and not a good fit at the time. Where was that guy supposed to play? Another wasted roster spot.

Of course there were better options. Look at the results. You say look at Vlad now. Look at Sheffield now on another team. Giambi's contract was too much for too long for a DH. Tony Womack was another one I forgot. Necessary moves and smart moves are very different things. Cashman and George are the main reasons for the Yankees playoff downfall. They built teams for the regular season and not WS contenders. The Yankees teams of the 90's weren't spending all this money and terrible talent. Egos got in the way and the result is zero WS this century.

[Lance324]

Just a few points after reading the last few posts...

1. I do agree that Cashman isn't as much to blame, he is nothing more than a middle man. Steinbrenner runs the team, everybody knows that, but I guess he has left more of the personnel management to Cashman in the last couple of years, hence they have more young talent.

2. When Gary Sheffield was a Yankee, and I was rooting for the opposition, there was no player I hated to see come up more than him. He was the most dangerous bat in their lineup.

3. Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens, both overpaid, overage players that an already aging team did not need.

4. Jaret Wright and Pavano, both players the Yankees overpaid for following good seasons.

5. No mention of Johnny Damon, another terrible contract. I was so happy the Red Sox didn't just counter that offer. Everybody knew his defense was poor and dwindling more by the year. Giambi was another terrible signing, you just don't give one dimensional players that much money.

But we're getting off topic here, fact of the matter is Torre can ony play with the cards he's given, that's not in his control.

[love_that_reefer]

Wright and Pavano were overpaid for good reasons? How the hell is that? Just because they had one good year?

[Veovis]

Abreu has everything to due with the Sheffield-Vlad argument because he wouldn't be here if we had Vlad. And like I said, as it looks now, Vlad would have been a bad sign because he is breaking down. We already have multiple DHs on this team. We don't need another one, even if he is the caliber of hitter that Vlad is.

Randy Johnson would not have accepted a trade here if we didn't extend him. Therefore, we had to extend him.

Tony Womack, Kenny Lofton were stop gaps. I agree, awful players, but hell, at the time we didn't know what we had in Cano, and Melky wasn't ready to contribute. Bernie was awful in CF. George wanted some veterans and Cashman signed some veterans. I'm not saying it is right, but the move was understandable and should not be thrown at Cashman.

Johnny Damon was another move that was made out of necessity. We were going into last year with Bubba Crosby as our CFer. Which move was worse? At least Damon allows Matsui to slide into the DH slot now.

And about Pavano, you mean smart GMs like... who? Are Theo Epstein and Dave Dombrowski suddenly not intelligent GMs? Come on man...

Again, Giambi was George's move. He wanted more offensive firepower at 1B.

Like I have been saying, these moves didn't work out, but when you don't have a farm system and need to win the World Series every year, what are you going to do? You don't have good young players to step in and plug holes. Your only recourse is to go into the FA market and pay through the nose for mediocre performers with upside. Pavano and Wright had upside, but unfortunately they were limited by injuries.

I am really happy with the job Cashman has done rebuilding this team the past two years. I hope he is given the opportunity to continue because we are looking good for the future. You should be giving Cashman credit for turning the organizational philosophy around. He started in 2005 when he brought up Wang and Cano and forced Torre to go to them. He's been on a good roll ever since.

[love_that_reefer]

The Red Sox were never in the running for Pavano because he said he didn't want to play there. It was still too much money for a guy who had one good year.

Abreu better than Vlad?? **** no! Not in that beast of a lineup. And no Abreu had nothing to do with Sheff getting traded like YOU said originally. At least with Vlad you would have a solid RFer for all these years instead of Abreu and Sheff and the headaches that came with him. Vlad has always had a history of injuries so I don't think he is breaking down.

If Randy had to be extended, don't make the deal. Get someone else.

You don't pay that much for stop gap guys. This is a prime example of just getting players to get players. Not smart moves.

Damon was a necessity? No one else could have done better? This guy has hardly any range and a terrible arm. He was DH material before the Yankees signed him.

You keep separating George and Cashman but I am not. They both made stupid ****ing moves and are more to blame than Torre. If they got Torre a good TEAM instead of getting the "best" available guys a WS might come.

You can make a smart moves instead of getting the high priced talent. Spending the most money doesn't get you a championship obviously. Being smart with contracts and money is how you do it. You keep saying all these dumb moves were out of necessity which is true but no excuse. You needed Vlad but didn't get him. There is always plenty of talent out there. You have to get what best fits your team, not guys with $$$ in their eyes. It's pretty simple. The whole point of this is to show it's not Joe's fault and that its the franchise that is poorly run.

[Lance324]

Wright and Pavano were overpaid for good reasons? How the hell is that? Just because they had one good year?

Sorry, forgot a , That was supposed to read...

Wright and Pavano were overpaid for, following good seasons. I'm in total agreement it was stupid.

[Veovis]

You alright Reef? You seem a bit edgy.

Does not matter if Pavano did not want to go to Boston, they still offered him more money. That goes into setting his market price.

Did I ever say Abreu was better than Vlad? No. I insinuated he was a better fit for this team, yeah. Why? Because Vlad is noticeably hobbled now. They stuck him at DH nearly 30% of the games he played this year. His RF and ZR are decreasing in RF. He is slowing down. Is it so hard to believe that of a 31 year old OF who played the majority of his games on the tough turf of Montreal? He is a great player man, but soon he'll be a DH and our team can't really afford that. Plus, this is ignoring the fact that Vladdy didn't even want to come here, so this whole part of our argument is probably moot.

And yes Sir, Abreu had everything to do with Sheffield getting traded, like I said. When we got Abreu, Sheffield became expendable. We had nowhere to put him (unless you thought the whole 1B idea was good...), so we traded him for prospects.

And besides Randy, who should we have traded for? You keep saying someone else - who else? With what was a pitiful farm system, the only guy we could get that fits the description of ace was Randy.

Tony Womack and Kenny Lofton were not expensive. Just because they are veterans with somewhat recognizable names does not mean they were paid $40 million for 4 years to come here.

I would argue that I would rather have Damon in CF than Bubba Crosby, and I would rather have Damon in LF than Matsui. How's that? Luckily, Melky has been awesome and took his spot in CF. Damon can still contribute pretty well with the bat. His problem this year was coming into camp overweight. Beltran would be the obvious choice over Damon, but we decided pitching was more important at the time (Johnson).

And why do you not separate George and Cashman? Is it not obvious that the periods when Cashman has been in charge have seen the best management? Cashman's first period of control was from '98-'01. He oversaw our greatest team and three World Series titles. After the loss in 2001, George began taking more control and brought in Giambi. The organization was dysfunctional from 2002-2005. The farm system went barren. Resources were allocated to free agency. Since Cashman regained control in 2006, we have been heading in the right direction.

Are you going to tell me that Cashman's work since 2006 has been ruining the franchise? Really? He has made two bad moves - signing Farnsworth and Kei Igawa (although Igawa was recommended by the same people who recommended El Duque, so take that for what it's worth). Against those mistakes he has revitalized the farm system, traded away our dead wood (Johnson, Jaret Wright, Sheffield), and traded for Abreu. Each of these moves has paid dividends in one way or another. If it was not for his work, we would not have made the playoffs this year. We would not have had the pitching depth to survive all of our injuries to the starting staff. Would you really argue he has done a poor job since returning to full control?

I understand you are obviously passionate in your argument that Cashman messed up the franchise, but the evidence says otherwise. And no, I am not blaming this on Torre either. I like Torre a lot. I hope he is retained. The so-called "failure" of the Yankees to make it to the playoffs the past seven years without winning a World Series has more to do with the organizational philosophy geared towards veteran players. A philosophy put in place by George Steinbrenner. It takes time to correct the mistakes of the past, and Cashman has done an admirable job in doing just that.

"My ultimate goal would be to home-grow everybody. That's not realistic, but my biggest dream would be to home-grow it all," Cashman said Monday night. "I'm very devoted to the amateur pipeline in the domestic and international markets."

ESPN - Bryant: Yankees era of greatness comes to a halt - MLB

[love_that_reefer]

I'm always all right. Look, Pavano and Wright were two guys who were injury prone and had one good year and were overpaid tremendously. On top of that, it was at the same time.

If the Yankees gave Vlad the same deal the Angels did, the Yankees would be doing better no doubt about it. Vlad crushes Abreu's numbers and it's not even close and would be cheaper than Abreu. Vald's contract is up at after the 08 season so he wouldn't be as broke down and let's not kid ourselves, Abreu isn't that great in RF either anymore. The Yankees dropped the ball.

There were guys younger without risks that the Yankees could have gotten. Derek Lowe was a FA and there is always guys on the trade block that the Yankees could have had. The Yankees went after him to compete with the Red Sox when it should always be the other way around.

Lofton and Womack were not paid $40 mil but were overpaid and just not smart moves. Womack had his one great year and Lofton didn't have a real position coming in. Fourth OFers are a dime a dozen. Again they were just dumb moves.

You said it yourself, they rather have a 40 yr old Johnson over a Beltran coming off a great season. Not smart especially when you give that money to a guy who throws like a 5 yr old girl and is older. I'm not saying Crosby would be the right choice but other OFers were out there they actually play defense and were younger.

I don't separate Cashman and George because they are the same. Nothing Cashman does is done without George's permission. George is the owner and the two of them are THE main reason the Yankees haven't won anything. Other GM's are being smarter and conservative with their transactions. The Yankees are just getting big names just to get big names. To say if it wasn't for Cashman we would't be in the playoffs is a little misleading. Sure he built a good regular season team but did not build a winner. Cashman has done well to keep the farm in tact I will give him that. But you cannot excuse the dumb moves he and George have made. This team is poorly ran and isn't looking too good in the near future especially if they get rid of the guy who has gotten them to the postseason for 12 years straight and has won WS with far less talent but good team guys than he does now. The Yankees were doing the same thing the Giants were doing and that's getting guys past their prime.

[Veovis]

I would agree with you that the team was mismanaged from 2002-2005. I have said as much before. There was no clear hierarchy. Obviously George was on top, but Cashman and the Tampa faction were pulling in opposite directions. From 2002-2005, I would say the Tampa faction had an incredible amount of pull considering the moves made during that time (Sheffield over Vlad, Lofton, Womack). The Yankees were not run like other organizations during that time, and you seem to refuse to recognize that fact. If there were two different philosophies at work, it stands to reason that their respective philosophical heads - Steinbrenner and Cashman - can not fundamentally be the same.

As of 2006 (with the declining health of Steinbrenner the main reason, I think), the team is being finely managed. Cashman has control; he has created a clear organizational hierarchy. You say Cashman should get props for retaining our young talent, which is true, but I say he should also get credit for building our minor league system! Without that minor league system, we would not have made the playoffs this year, and that is not misleading. Without the contributions of Joba Chamberlain, Melky Cabrera, Ian Kennedy, Phil Hughes, Shelley Duncan, etc. we would not have made the playoffs.

Who could we have traded for? Nobody with the pedigree of Randy Johnson - who was our only option precisely because he was old. When you don't have prospects or affordable players of any kind, your options are limited. If we had signed Beltran instead of trading for Johnson, we would not have overtaken the Red Sox and Indians to make the playoffs in 2005. It is the curse of having to make the playoffs every year and not having a farm system, you have to constantly sacrifice the future for the present.

Derek Lowe? Come now. Derek Lowe got progressively worse in Boston. He would be awful in the AL right now. Just because he is pitching well in the weak hitting NL West in a pitcher's park does not mean he would be great shakes out here. At this point he would just be standing in the way of our pitching prospects. At least Wright and Pavano had the grace to get injured to clear the way.

Just tell me, how would you rate Cashman's performance since George gave him control in 2006? That is the only fair way to judge his performance as GM, because that is the only time frame since the Championship years that he has had control.

[brewersfan19]

Chacon is pitching in Pittsburgh. That is where the Yankees traded him too.


Still think that Joe will be in NY next year. But if not, you can pretty much count on Mo, Posada, Pettitte, and probably all not returning either.


Again, but what do I know?

[BuckFoston]

Joe needs to stay with this team. Everyone in this organaztion has a great deal of respect for this man and he deserves it. No one could have ever done what Joe did this year or even last year for that matter. He has had an amazing career in NY and he deserves to be in that dug out again next year. Its not his fault no one hit the ball, its not his fault no one could pitch. He did all he could within his power to win that series. The players want him back and so does everyone else (besides George). Mo has already spoken out and told us that if Joe goes then he might go as well. Joe deserves one more shot at #27 and hopefully he will get it.

[love_that_reefer]

Derek Lowe just came off an amazing postseason in which he helped bring down the Yankees in the biggest choke job ever. He wouldn't be standing in the way of prospects, that's Mussina and Clemens' job.

I would rate Cashman's job at GM since 2006 a 6 out of 10. He did nothing to help the bullpen or the rotation. The two main weaknesses the Yankees had going into the season.