Should the Twins make moves in the deadline?

[Steak]

Seth Stohs came up with this discussion question for his fantastic website at www.sethspeaks.net yesterday so I figured I would take his discussion question for you folks to discuss.


a) What moves do the Twins need to make to win the division? Trades?

I don't think the Twins need to make any moves. I like the team the way it is. This team is more than good enough to overcome She-ca-go and any ML teams. I like the core nucleus of this team. I like the personalities of the team. I don't want to break this good chemistry on this team. As you saw in 2001, it's hard for the new guys to fit in as Todd Jones and Rick Reed can attest. This team have enough to win it all IMO. I am not sure if any rentals are appealing to be honest with you anyway. There are not that many Shannon Stewarts out there anyway. When I mean Shannon Stewarts, I mean them as impact players that can lead them like Shannon did in 2003. Let She-ca-go, NY, and Boston make all the moves they want. This team is more than fine. You know the pitching is great and you know the offense is pretty darn good as you saw in the West Coast trip.


b.) Finally, and maybe most importantly, which Twins minor leaguers would you classify as "Untouchable" ?

Scott Baker mainly because he will probably in the rotation next year with Joe Mays likely gone as a FA and the fact Brad is likely on his last year with the Twins next year.

[DiamondGirl]

I too like the team we have I just wish we had a true DH/pinch hitter - big bat on the bench. I liked Tiffee but he needs some more time to mature but we can certainly go a long way with the team we have.

[Steak]

Twins may need to improve their bench. That could be the big problem they have. I thought the lack of bench hurt the Twins in the ALDS last year.

Isn't Lew the regular DH hitter?

It would be nice to get a big bat on the bench. I wish Lecrap would be that answer, but he will never be the answer.

[mntwinsfan]

What you need is a above average dh hitter. The loss of Ortiz will haunt us for ever. Look at the numbers he has put up in Boston. We need to find a DH hitter and a 3rd baseman as well who both can hit the long ball and have a 270+ BA.

[Steak]

David Ortiz did crap for us though. He got hurt a lot and he was a pain in the ass like Cristian and Luis back then. Apparently, David decided to play baseball with the Red Sox. Either that or he took steroids.

Lew is a solid DH.

I think Michael Cuddyer is starting to come on his own. He has played well in the last two weeks.

[DiamondGirl]

Michael Cuddyer has done a great job at 3rd base for us and will only get better at that position. He's made some awesome grabs and throws strong to 1st base - I like him there. And now that he has settled into knowing he's the starting 3rd baseman, his bat has come around where it should be. He still tries to do too much at times at bat but he'll settle down and do what needs to be done.

Lew is a great DH but we need a bigger bat in my opinion.

[Steak]

I am really glad Michael is playing well. As mntwinsfan said last year, the more at-bats he gets, the more confidence he will get and it's showing right now. I am happy Michael has found his comfort level especially at third base.

Every hitter is hitting right now.

[Fishercat]

Christ, do I have to bring out the stats AGAIN on how Ortiz wasn't bad as a Twin and how the team was stupid to release him?

Just because the Twins coaching staff tried to screw up his natural batting style and they weren't willing to pay a guy who had improved three years in a row (and who was an above average hitter) going into his prime 1.5 million to play DH/1B doesn't mean he did crap for the team.

In fact, time to C&P a post.

MIN (2002)
Hits: 112
Singles: 49
XBH: 53
Ratio (1B:XBH out of 100): 92:100

BOS (2003)
Hits: 129
Singles: 57
XBH: 72
Ratio (1B:XBH): 79:100

BOS (2004)
Hits: 175
Singles: 84
XBH: 91
Ratio (1B:XBH): 92:100

This David Ortiz who "hit singles most of the time" actually hits less singles then XBH in Minnestoa. Not to mention, he had the same whole number ratio (x 1B for 100 XBH) in Boston (2004) as he did in Minnesota (2002) And his 2003 differential? Can be attributed to significantly better numbers at home then on the road, with pelting doubles off the Green Monster and HR over the short wall in right. No evidence whatsoever.

----------------------------------------------------------

BTW, I have to say this. Ortiz was very good as a Minnesota Twin, and to let him go at 26 years old and after his best season yet was an absolutely horrible decision. His main issue was injury, so let me expand. Ortiz played essentially the whole season (missed 12 games, guess due to days off and a suspension) this year and racked up 669 PA. In his last season with the Twins, he had 466 PA. As a pure projection, I will multiply Ortiz's numerical stats for the Twins in 2002 by 1.44, he is what he would have had if he continued the same pace. (Using basic rounding rules, .5+ is up to the next numbers)

75 runs
161 hits
46 doubles
29 homeruns
108 RBI
62 walks
125 strikeouts
101 runs created

And that isn't worth beating the 1.25 mil the Sox paid him in his first year?

Please.

[Steak]

David got hurt. He was a lazy bum for us. I thought it was stupid not to sign him so that Lecrap would get a chance to show his potential, but the bottom line was that David earned his ticket out of town by apparently not matching the high standards of the Twins coaching staff. Tom Kelly apparently struggled to get through to Ortiz. Yeah Scott Ulleger sucks, but apparently Ortiz did not endear himself to the Twins coaches.

[Fishercat]

Oh no, he got hurt. In spite of him increasing his production every year and we'd only have to pay him 1.5 million, he got hurt and was lazy, so let's cut him. There's logic when you don't have a power presence on your baseball team.

The high standards of the Twins coaching staff? Pardon my French, what the ****? They let Mientkiewicz play 1B over him. They let a guy who has been the worst hitter in baseball this year play SS. They let a guy who is the least valuable pitcher in baseball be in the rotation. I don't care if David Ortiz went out there in bermuda shorts and a tanktop and rode a segway to first base from the dugout, when he is up to your best hitter in terms of batting, you don't cut him when you can pay him less than 2 million dollars and he's only 26.

When a guy is 12th on your roster in payroll behind Denny Hocking and Bob Wells and he is underappreciated on the market, why not keep him? Try to get him to improve his work ethic. Also, perhaps he did not endear himself to the coaches because they were forcing him to be, as I believe Patriot put it, a punch-and-judy hitter. Why have him slap balls when he can crush them? The Sox let him be natural and he became a better hitter. The hitting coach would be Ortiz' man coach. He is a fielder second, so that coach really doesn't matter. And Tom Kelly, well, possibly having Matthew Lecroy and Doug Mientkiewicz steal PT from him wasn't the best thing in the world for Mr. Ortiz/Arias' psyche.

If a team got rid of their players with character flaws in baseball, it'll be one bad team.

[Steak]

Dougie Baseball only got playing time over Ortiz because of his defense. Dougie's time with the Twins was limited with Justin Morneau waiting in the wings.

Ortiz finally grew up in Boston and it's good that he found religion. I only wish he did the same for the Twins. I know he was not a favorite with the coaching staff which is one of the reasons he was gone along with Cristian Guzman and Todd Walker. With the Twins, it's either do it the Twins way or be gone.

Twins have to teach him to improve his work ethic? This is not HS. If Ortiz is not self-motivated to improve on his own, that's on him. Tom Kelly screamed at Ortiz till he was blue in the face, but it was not working for Ortiz. TK would coodle him TK would praise him. TK would be supportive. TK even tried to scream at him and rip him to the writers. It wasn't working with Ortiz.

If Ortiz is sensitive about Dougie and Lecrap taking playing time from him, that's on him. He should have grown him some sack if he was that sensitive. I will say this though. It was stupid to cut Ortiz for the useless Denny Hocking and Lecrap.

[Fishercat]

First base defense is more important than offense. Mmmkay.

Then what did the Sox do to improve how his play is and why couldn't the Twins do that. Maybe he isn't working any harder or changed much, and maybe Papa Jack is simply that much better than Ulleger. In that case, perhaps the Twins should look at replacing him if they haven't done so at this point. I seem to remember Ortiz going in for extra help with Papa Jack, and maybe he just needed a hitting coach that could relate to him.

I didn't mean Ortiz was sensative. Rather that he was shaken due to not getting consistant playing time, not finding your rhythm per se.

The goal in baseball isn't to be the best people or have the best work ethic, it is to win. Maybe Lew Ford (who is a good player) is a harder worker than David Ortiz, but the difference between those two could be the difference between losing in a sweep to the Yankees and winning the WS.

[Steak]

Scott Ulleger stinks period. I have called for his head like most Twins fans forever.

Yeah the goal in baseball is to win with talent, but the Twins do it differently than others and that's okay. I liken the Twins lto the NHL's Devils. Both teams love to win with hard workers. There is a reason why both franchises are successful. You gotta have guys who are team-first. Guys like Frank Thomas and C.C. Sabathia may be great players, but they would not fit it in with the Twins. I doubt Pay-Rod or Prior would have fit in. That's why I think joek's win method make sense. You gotta have guys that have the right makeup and the right intangibles.

The bottom line is that the Twins gave David so many chance to succeed, but it hasn't worked. They gave Denny Hocking a chance to succeed, but it hasn't worked. They gave Cristian a chance to succeed, but he never worked out. It happened. David has moved on and made the most of it and the Twins have moved on and made the most of it.

[DiamondGirl]

Ortiz has grown into being a great hitter but his lack of defensive skills at 1B is what put him on the bench and into the DH role. I'm not saying that LeCroy is any better at 1st base defensively but he approaches the game the Twins way unlike Ortiz. I like Ortiz and enjoy watching him with the Red Sox.

Steak you are right when you said TK screamed at Ortiz but he didn't listen. TK nearly beat his head through walls trying to get his point across about how the game is to be played - at least the way the Twins play the game.

Defense does win games and that is why Doug played ahead of Ortiz. I'd play a rookie with stellar defensive skills any day ahead of Ortiz at first. Even the Red Sox were concerned going into St Louis for the World Series having to use Ortiz at first. Sure you can't take away from what he can do at bat but in the end, it is a team game and the Twins did what they had to do for the better of the TEAM.

[Fishercat]

I can't believe all this whoring for defense at first base, the second least defensive position in baseball. The first baseman has two real defensive jobs, diving to the right of left for the rare ground ball to first and scooping balls. There is no way in hell the difference between the Twins 1B and David Ortiz was that big. It's one thing to use Mientkiewicz's good year as an argument, but defense? Please. The Sox had Todd Walker and Mark Bellhorn at 2B and got to the ALCS and WS.

The Sox may be worried about Ortiz at 1B, but there is no way they wouldn't play him.

There is no place in the universe where getting rid of David Ortiz is a good thing.