I am back with new thoughts for our beloved team

[redsrbetter]

Hey guys/gals, I am back and am ready to chat it up again. So, first off, my honeymoon trip was amazing. I won $1500 the other day to top off all that was shared in my last thread. Just a great time.

Anyways, the worst part about my trip had to be my inability to talk to you guys and watch the games. Looks like I have missed a lot. But the biggest thing is that this team is losing bad. The season is over and it really takes a lot for me to accept that. Too many unhappy players and fans to even begin to spark a winning streak. So let the firesale begin! As mentioned by plenty of you here, make it start from the top. We have to get rid of this entire FO to include the owner.

We have to throw this season in the garbage and enjoy it as fans at the same time. So, in order for me to do it, I will be heavily focused on the future. I want to see guys like Lopez, Pena, Wagner and Harang excel. I want to pay more attention to EdE and Bailey in the minor leagues. I would love to see this team have young players become successful and still lose nearly every game from here on out. Have this team be labeled "the worst team ever" for all I care. Get the losses and receive the better draft pick.

This is a drastic change for me, but I truly think it is the way to go. Trades? I think the best idea has to be trading Dunn. Casey is our best hitter bottom line. And after this season Randa will be gone and we will be left without any contact hitters whatsoever. Dunn would have incredible value and could very well land us a great pitcher. Especially down the stretch with a team in desperate need of some power. If the rumors are true about Kearns being a baby and not manning up to how horrible he has been (seriously is such a huge dissapointment) he can be traded as well. Trade him for good pitching prospects or draft picks. But, as mentioned, we have to wait to get his value up first. I would even go as far as giving him a guaranteed position on the trading block once he regains some value. This would give him something to play for.

So with that we lose Dunn and Kearns and it looks insane. But, if we do lose Dunn, we get;
- A good pitcher, which is a much bigger need than anything for this team right now
- Give him his chance to get away from this FO which is tormenting him.
- Give him what he would demand after trading Kearns.
And if we do lose Kearns we would still have Stratton and Kelly available with Syzmanaski and our newest first round pick (?) hopefully available once Griffey is done. Outfielders are plenty in this organization and I really believe that the FO must have had losing at least one of these guys in mind with the way the draft went.

So this year is a bust and we have to think about the future, but that future is going to have to exist without Lindner, Allen, DanO, Miley, and Kremcheck.

These are the guys that we need to follow as they should be in our future:

Freel 2B
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Pena RF
Casey 1B
Stratton LF
Encarnacion 3B
LaRue C

new ace (Dunn trade)
Wilson (rejuvenated)
Harang
Hudson
Claussen/Milton

Wagner
Coffey (hopefully will get it together)
Keisler

[missionhockey21]

First off, welcome back bro and congrats.

Now for the comments:

We have to throw this season in the garbage and enjoy it as fans at the same time. So, in order for me to do it, I will be heavily focused on the future. I want to see guys like Lopez, Pena, Wagner and Harang excel. I want to pay more attention to EdE and Bailey in the minor leagues. I would love to see this team have young players become successful and still lose nearly every game from here on out. Have this team be labeled "the worst team ever" for all I care. Get the losses and receive the better draft pick.

I really love your take on this negative situation and I appreciate how you can find the positives. Since we are obviously huge fans of the Reds, really all we can do is either be glum on the whole situation or enjoy what we can. I want to see our young guys succeed and our team lose. I am with you on the draft pick scenario, let's just hope the front office isn't affraid to give Dan O his walking papers, I would hate to see us ruin a chance of a top 5 pick (if we continue down this path.)

I think the best idea has to be trading Dunn. Casey is our best hitter bottom line.

I have to disagree here. I love Casey but we need to go with the youth IMO. Plus I really do not think we can get full value for Dunn at this point. Dunn is going to be just a flatout stud for many years, I really don't think we can get a young durable ace that will make us forget about that deal while Dunn is mashing elsewhere. I can deal with not getting equal value for Casey, but not Adam Bomb.

So this year is a bust and we have to think about the future, but that future is going to have to exist without Lindner, Allen, DanO, Miley, and Kremcheck.

I really think the only gurantee there to go is Miley and maybe Dan O. As long as Lindner is there, Allen will be too. Hopefully Gullet can be added to your list as well.

Freel 2B
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Pena RF
Casey 1B
Stratton LF
Encarnacion 3B
LaRue C

I really think it would be foolish to trade off both Dunn and Kearns (since Dunn will bring value but everyone will be trying to get Kearns at a 90% off discounted price). But that's putting a lot of pressure on Stratton, we don't even know if he can it at the MLB level.

[AdamDunn#44]

cant trade Dunn. hes the type of player you build around.

Casey is getting older and slower. hes grounding into doubleplays at a record pace and its getting them but a lot of the blame is on Miley fr batting him 3rd. and his power is gone.

if you want to trade Dunn because he ks too much then you will hate Stratton. he ks more than Dunn nd doesnt walk nearly as much.

[Wally Mo Pena]

Welcome back redsr!

The ESPN2 guys had some interesting stuff to say about the reds trade options last night. The crux of the issue was this: Milton screwed us, but that was just to start things off. What that causes is us not being able to afford Dunn unless we sign him long-term this year. He is going to make at least 8 mil in arbitration if we let him get there, and more the next year, and that’s not exactly young building block money. That’s star money.

One option for us is if we sign him long-term this year, we should be able to get him for 10 mil/per or less, which will be worth it if we get him for 7+ years and teach him to hit line drives (it’s not like they wouldn’t go out). The LTC would also allow us to back load some of that for when Griffey is off the books, allowing us a little more wiggle room. Trading Casey becomes necessary at that point. With the back loading of Dunn’s contract we and unloading casey’s 8 mil for next year we should free up about 6 mil. That would mean Dunn or Griffey had to move to 1st, and we could keep Kearns and Pena (who are both really cheap).

With Randa, Graves, and Jiminez off the books next year we would have about 17 mil free for raises and maybe an addition or two. Or lindner will just keep the money knowing danO will just toss it out the window. If we get some decent specs for Randa and Casey we’d be looking better. We’d have

Feel 2b
Lopez ss
Dunn 1b
Pena lf,
Griffey rf
Kearns cf
EdE 3b
Larue c

and that’s awesome (or could be if those players play like they are capable), but it still leaves our pitching in disarray. Maybe Harang and Claussen can continue to improve, and maybe Wilson will come back strong, but those guys should be your 3-5 guys, maybe harang is a 2, but it’s not a dominating 1-3.

Assuming Milton is insane and never comes back, and not knowing what we’ll be able to get from Hudson or hancock, we need an ACE. With all that offense (EdE batting 7th?) it seems like we need to deal some of that offense for pitching. They noted on the air yesterday that the reds have scored the second most runs in the NL, but allowed the most, and it balances out to being outscored by 60+ so far.

One of the OFs has to go, and it should be whoever can bring in the best pitcher that we can have for a while. If that’s Dunn, then it’s Dunn. If it’s Pena, then it’s Pena. Don’t sell cheap, of course, but we need a youngish guy who can really pitch. Peavy, Harden, Bedard, Meyers, a guy like that. Make it Dunn and a prospect if we need to. This team will not win if we can’t get better pitching and we have such a glut of offense, something has to give.

[QuietAcre]

First off, congratulations on being married. Make the best of it, always try and realize that your wife only has one life and that tomorrow might be your last day with her. Oh, and be sure to have plenty of moments when your spontaneously think to yourself "I just love her!". Right now, those thoughts won't count as much because your marriage is new. The older your relationship with her becomes (especially in marriage) the more firmly seated will your love for her become. I am greatly happy for you, redsrbetter.

Secondly, make SURE that she is prepared, for a lifetime, for your dilemma of being a Reds fan. So far my infliction with the Reds has had the following signs and symptoms:

- "skip the dishes, will do them tomorrow"

- "okay, I'm going to eat in the computer room (as she heads off to the bedroom to eat and watch television)

- "the yard needs to be mowed, but the lawnmower needs fixing first, and right now it is too hot outside to do that. I'll fix the mowerlater (which never happens because now it is time to watch the game).

Thirdly, LOSE that freaking "amazing" word in your vocabulary! It's so "Generation 2005, Just Fresh Out Of High School". Whenever I hear that WAY over-used word on a "reality show", I just skip the channel. The wife laughs BEFORE I skip the channel, because she knows how irritated I become with "tele-language".

[QuietAcre]

Welcome back redsr!

The ESPN2 guys had some interesting stuff to say about the reds trade options last night. The crux of the issue was this: Milton screwed us, but that was just to start things off. What that causes is us not being able to afford Dunn unless we sign him long-term this year. He is going to make at least 8 mil in arbitration if we let him get there, and more the next year, and that’s not exactly young building block money. That’s star money.

One option for us is if we sign him long-term this year, we should be able to get him for 10 mil/per or less, which will be worth it if we get him for 7+ years and teach him to hit line drives (it’s not like they wouldn’t go out). The LTC would also allow us to back load some of that for when Griffey is off the books, allowing us a little more wiggle room. Trading Casey becomes necessary at that point. With the back loading of Dunn’s contract we and unloading casey’s 8 mil for next year we should free up about 6 mil. That would mean Dunn or Griffey had to move to 1st, and we could keep Kearns and Pena (who are both really cheap).

With Randa, Graves, and Jiminez off the books next year we would have about 17 mil free for raises and maybe an addition or two. Or lindner will just keep the money knowing danO will just toss it out the window. If we get some decent specs for Randa and Casey we’d be looking better. We’d have

Feel 2b
Lopez ss
Dunn 1b
Pena lf,
Griffey rf
Kearns cf
EdE 3b
Larue c

and that’s awesome (or could be if those players play like they are capable), but it still leaves our pitching in disarray. Maybe Harang and Claussen can continue to improve, and maybe Wilson will come back strong, but those guys should be your 3-5 guys, maybe harang is a 2, but it’s not a dominating 1-3.

Assuming Milton is insane and never comes back, and not knowing what we’ll be able to get from Hudson or hancock, we need an ACE. With all that offense (EdE batting 7th?) it seems like we need to deal some of that offense for pitching. They noted on the air yesterday that the reds have scored the second most runs in the NL, but allowed the most, and it balances out to being outscored by 60+ so far.

One of the OFs has to go, and it should be whoever can bring in the best pitcher that we can have for a while. If that’s Dunn, then it’s Dunn. If it’s Pena, then it’s Pena. Don’t sell cheap, of course, but we need a youngish guy who can really pitch. Peavy, Harden, Bedard, Meyers, a guy like that. Make it Dunn and a prospect if we need to. This team will not win if we can’t get better pitching and we have such a glut of offense, something has to give.

Some GREAT thoughts! One thing that makes it all easier is to know that the Reds really don't have anyone that is truely (as in agreeable with the rest of the GM's, when they're sitting in church) "not expendable". I look at the outfielders we have in this way:

(2 positives, 2 negative for each)

Dunn
+ strong swing
+ ability to generate a walk
- poor defense
- poor attitude (will get slammed for this, but it's true)

Kearns
+ best all-around athlete on the team
+ very good defense
- ever-weakening bat
- poor attitude (just one look at his appearance in general)

Wily Mo Pena
+ strong swing
+ great attitude
- Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde defense
- mentally there one game, on a beach the next

Ken Griffey, Jr.
+ still has a sweet swing
+ seems to have his game-hat on every day when playing CF
- doesn't hustle (this is debatable, considering his injuries)
- ever-weakening outfield skills, still has flashes of making very good plays

Sorry, AdamDunn#44, I don't have any statistics for you.

[AdamDunn#44]

funny, you are the onyl one that says Dunn has a poor attutude. dano said dunn jokes a lot and people like you take it out of context

[Wally Mo Pena]

AD44 since when are you citing DanO to back you up. I thought if DanO said it you disagreed.

i think what QA was saying (that i agree with and there is evidence of) is that Adam Dunn has a poor attitude in terms of his approach to the game, not his clubhouse persona. There's a big difference between being a joker in the club house (and he is funny) and taking your work seriously. It has been reported by several people in and outside of the organization that Dunn doesn't take extra BP. It's things like that. He's complacent with his production, and he could be so much better. When people talk about Pujols, the first thing they mention is how hard he works, not talent or size.

If Dunn could make that true for him, he'd probably be a similar hitter.

[AdamDunn#44]

I guess Casey has a poor attitude too because it been reported that Griffey and Bergolla were the only ones to show up last time

[QuietAcre]

AD44 since when are you citing DanO to back you up. I thought if DanO said it you disagreed.

i think what QA was saying (that i agree with and there is evidence of) is that Adam Dunn has a poor attitude in terms of his approach to the game, not his clubhouse persona. There's a big difference between being a joker in the club house (and he is funny) and taking your work seriously. It has been reported by several people in and outside of the organization that Dunn doesn't take extra BP. It's things like that. He's complacent with his production, and he could be so much better. When people talk about Pujols, the first thing they mention is how hard he works, not talent or size.

If Dunn could make that true for him, he'd probably be a similar hitter.

Precisely! I find it hilarious that fanboys (sorry, AdamDunn#44, you placed that title on yourself the moment you used a player's name as your moniker, LOL!) take criticism of a player on a technical level, and try to turn it into criticism on a personal level. Dunn would be graded as follows, IMO:

++ Great power, lots of patience
+ Decent speed for a big guy, Decent arm
- Not a leader by example, where are the steals and all-out-effort to make plays?
-- Doesn't give 100% in the field or at the plate

In my opinion, Dunn is stuck at a cross-roads, between turning left to head toward Dave Kingman country, and turning right toward Albert Pujols country.

[AdamDunn#44]

when i hear someone mention dunn in the same sentence as kingman, i think of them as flat out stupid.

dave kingman and adam dunn are nothing alike. dunn is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy better than kingman

[Wally Mo Pena]

I guess Casey has a poor attitude too because it been reported that Griffey and Bergolla were the only ones to show up last time

Maybe it was a special session between the two of them, because at all of the games in boston i saw Wily Mo, FeLo, Freel, Cruz, L Lopez, Valentin, Kelly, and Sardinha take extra BP under the center field bleechers.

Casey is a leader and you can see it on the field. Also, at the time he hadn't struck out in 70 ABs and was hitting over .400 in his last 20 games, so if he wants to opt out of extra BP, I think i'll give him a pass.

Randa is also a leader of the team (as evidenced by being asked to talk to the team with Casey after only a month on the squad, where was Dunn?) and is also outperforming his well established career numbers. Again, i'll give him a pass.

Also well reported that Griffey has his own cages and takes lots of extra hitting practice. Also, he's a vet and probably won't get that much better. Also he's coming off of major surgery. I'll let it slide.

So that leaves... Aurilia and Dunn. And don't mind my saying that as far as attitude goes, Rich Aurilia is not exactly esteemed company. He came in feeling like he was entitled to everything, just like kearns, and maybe like dunn.

[AdamDunn#44]

of course I dont care if he didnt strikeout all season

he still grounds into a record pacing amount of double plays and has complertely lost all oif his power

[Wally Mo Pena]

If you don't care if your contact hitters aren't striking out, then you are an idiot. I repeat, was batting over .400 for 20 games. He is a contact hitter, and he was doing more than was expected of him at the plate. He also hadn't hit into a DP in nearly three weeks.

Denile ain't just a river in egypt my man. Time to accept that your boy dunn isn't the greatest baseball player ever. or on this team right now.

[AdamDunn#44]

i never said he was the greatest hitting but hes a top 10 hitter in this league

pull your head outta that ass