reds get taveras

[ghettochild]

per my mlb.com text alerts. two year deal.

.341/.408/.817 in 44 PA at GABP. a .278 career leadoff hitter, with 111/19 sb/cs.

perhaps a good replacement for freel??

[Slyder]

The guy is junk. Remember who most of those abs would have come against. The guy is a free swinger who has absolutely 0 power(gap or HR). He could play in a little league Field and get shown up by kids.

He has 7 career HRs, 60 career doubles. He doesnt walk, he cant hit for any kind of power. He's going to be hurt by the smaller park (less room to cover by defenders), he's a downgrade defensively vs Patterson and Dickerson. This is a waste of a roster spot when you have younger options that showed SOMETHING regardless of if its just smoke and mirrors or something concrete. He's going to be an eye sore at bat.

Why you going to give him a guarenteed 2nd year? Does Jocketty doubt our system or spects in general THAT much? This gets back to my whole point of wasting assets when we cant afford to make mistakes. Were not even the Cubs where they have some lee way.

Baldelli might have some health concerns but when he is out on the field he has enough power to be a threat and has speed. Probably cost not much more than Tavares and can play CF if Dickerson needs a day off or in a pinch.

[redsrbetter]

Agreed fully here Slyder.

Horrible waste of talent. Waste of the fans time too. We will be hating Tavares from the start. But be prepared to spontaneously combust each and every night while Tavares is your starting CF and leadoff (non) hitter.

The worst part about this is that we are now paying a guy x amount of dollars to play significantly worse in every aspect of the game than a guy we already have. Tavares has speed, which is his only tool. Dickerson does too! Dickerson hits better, takes his walks, plays better defense, is cheaper...

I am hearing many people argue that Tavares is a good fit because there were no better options for CF on the market. That is false. Although other options aren't anything great either and I wouldn't go after any of them, but there are still better choices. But the thing to remember is, we have a far superior choice in house. Ready to go now. And if you aren't ready to measure a player's success based off 100 ABs last year, I am prepared to argue that same token with you. But surely, Dickerson's worst projections could not be worse than Tavares' best.

And those same people are arguing that Dickerson can play LF. Ok, well where is the big RH outfield bat going to play? Is Walt telling us that this is it? There are/were more RH outfield bats available on the free agent market than any other position. So they can't say it has been slim pickings.

As said before, I am fine with not spending the money on a bat that will will ultimately lead us to a few more wins. But if we are being told that this is the biggest focus in the offseason, and we have a GM that has a history of landing good talent, and there is an influx of RH LF talent on the market, and we don't land any of them; that is telling me that, for whatever reason, nobody wants to play in Cincinnati.

UGH! I guess we will be spending the 2009 season willing Dusty's demise as he runs Tavares out to CF each and every night (no pun intended). This move just set this franchise back quite a bit.

[Slyder]

I wont say it set this franchise back quite a bit, but why did this signing HAVE to happen? Again going back to my point after the Freel trade about assets. Dickerson's best asset is his defense, Stubbs best asset RIGHT NOW is his defense. Tavares' best asset is his speed (which he can hardly use unless you count speed back to the dugout). This makes no sense, we should have just kept Freel he at least can hit for xbh and an occasional HR.

Maybe Walt will get bored with this and "retire". Hopefully Duhhsty hangs himself with the rope Walt generously handed him. There was 0 reason to sign Tavares when theres so many other pressing needs.

[redsrbetter]

Yep this is ridiculous. I can say that this set us back because it definitely keeps this team from seeing how high Dickerson's ceiling is. And if not, then he is our starting LF. In which case voids the hope that we could get a proved RBI guy to split up Votto and Bruce.

Our 2009 lineup:

Taveras
Phillips
Votto
Encarnacion
Bruce
Hernandez
Dickerson
Gonzalez

WOW!

[redsrbetter]

A quote I found elsewhere:

Are the Reds still interested in Jerry Hairston Jr.? "Yes. He could end up being the left fielder if we can't get that RBI man, which might be hard to do at this point. We may have a different type of team, where we rely on speed and defense and try to manufacture runs. We've still got some guys who can hit the ball out of the ballpark -- (Joey) Votto, (Jay) Bruce and (Edwin) Encarnacion. But we're going to a little bit different kind of team."

Is this Walt's words, or someone making the situation harder?

[redsrbetter]

Yep, its Walt's words:

Per C Trent:

Just got off the phone with Walt Jocketty about Taveras and some other things.
On whether this signifies a change in the Reds' philosophy, going with a speed guy and not really replacing some of the big bats that left: "It’s more of what was available for us and what we had to do to improve the club. Our goal was to build on our pitching and improve our defense which helps our pitching. We feel if we had some offense with speed and it’ll generate enough runs to win some games."
On Taveras' terrible 07: "I think last year was the aberration, I base that a lot on Jamie Quirk who was with Willy the last two years. He saw him in ‘07 and he changed his approach. He has to use his speed to get on base and create havoc."
Jocketty said he thought Taveras "was trying to change his approach in Coors Field. He did not bunt as much last year."
With Bruce in right, Taveras in center, what about left: "At the present it’s Dickerson and Hopper and whatever else we end up doing."
As for those other things...
Jerry Hairston: "I talked to them before Christmas." Jocketty said he still would hope to sign Hairston, and he could be in the left field mix -- "We’re still trying to get Hairston, we’ll have a different look on our club, but we still have guys like Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion and even Hernandez with power."
Pat Burrell: "We haven’t talked to them at all for a while. We’re going to hold back and see what else happens."
Rocco Baldelli: "The health is a big issue, his durability and how much he’ll play. We’ll continue to look."
The Yankees outfield glut (Nick Swisher and Xavier Nady): "We’ve had some discussions, I wouldn’t say anything's close."
Barry Bonds/Sammy Sosa: "I don't think so."

[redsrbetter]

So, who is the top player going into the 2010 draft? We may want to pay attention to that, he could be playing for Billings in a few years.

[Doppelgänger]

I'm on the fence about this one, I don't think its as bad as you guys are making it out to be. Dickerson has never projected to be anything at the major league level, despite catching fire the second half of last year. If he does falls back to his career path and hits .230 everyone is going to be wishing there was someone else. Taveras could rebound, improve, or stay the same. He is only a year older than Dickerson mind you, despite the much longer service time. The signing isn't what scares me though its if he is repeatedly used to lead off by Dusty as Dickerson bats .350 sitting on the bench and Taveras hits .250 leading off everyday.

[redsrbetter]

Thats not an "if' Doppelganger. That is a bonafide guarantee. Taveras is your starting CF/leadoff hitter. What makes you think Dusty would change his approach from last year? Remember Patterson?

The thing that kills me the most is that this is the biggest offensive signing we are going to have this offseason. Walt is quoted all over the place now (see above) as thinking we likely cannot come up with that RBI guy. I am not happy at all.

[Slyder]

I would not mind getting Xavier Nady if he's willing to negotiate a fair extension. The guy has some power in his bat and I dont think is that bad of a glove. Granted Im not "old school" enough to bat him fourth just because he's a righty.

Granted Im not running the Reds but....
1) Dickerson CF
2) Phillips 2b (Yes I gamble that hitting second gets Phillips to be a bit more selective and back in the line drive mindset he was in 07)
3) Votto 1b
4) Bruce RF (I dont care if my entire lineup is LH or RH you put the 2 best power hitters period in 3/4 holes)
5) Nady LF
6) Edwin 3b
7) Insert SS here
8) Hannigan and tell Hernandez to shut up and enjoy the bench.

09 would be a "what the hell do we have year". Anywhere possible guys like Rosales, Dickerson, Hanigan, etc would be getting every opportunity to start and see what the in house options are. Unfortunately were in "win now" mode. The only positive is Duhhsty might hang himself with the rope Walts given him now.

[redsrbetter]

The problem with that formula is Dusty. Although I have argued that he showed us no sign of starting vets over rooks last year. He did show us signs of ignorance plugging Patterson in the lineup every day. Dusty is going to try to win. And I don't blame him for that. So we can hang up the though of seeing guys who haven't proven themselves yet until the ones blocking them have proven they suck for an extended period of time while in a Reds uniform.

[love_that_reefer]

I think it is a good signing for the Reds. People complain that his OBP is heavily BA created but so what? If we all went by Sabermetrics, Jimmy Rollins wouldn't be a leadoff man. There is no one better to play CF in the farm at this point no matter how high you guys are on Dickerson. Reds can use a healthy dose of speed. I don;t see this move hurting the Reds at all.

[Slyder]

I think it is a good signing for the Reds. People complain that his OBP is heavily BA created but so what? If we all went by Sabermetrics, Jimmy Rollins wouldn't be a leadoff man. There is no one better to play CF in the farm at this point no matter how high you guys are on Dickerson. Reds can use a healthy dose of speed. I don;t see this move hurting the Reds at all.

We've seen with this franchise how moves like this end up...

Last year was Corey Patterson, Paul Bako, Year before that Juan Castro, couple years ago Tony Woehack, Deion Sanders a few years back. Guys who absolutely no one want we bring in and give major at bats to. I wouldnt mind Tavares as bad if he were being brought in with a chance to win cf at worst being speed off the bench, but EVERYTHING I have read and heard has said that he is (basically) being given the everyday leadoff spot and a starting spot in CF.

And I would take Dickerson in a heart beat over Tavares. Dickerson can A) take a walk, B) Plays Good/Great D in CF, C) is cheap, D) is under the Reds control for another few years, E) and doesnt have 3 years of being a bad leadoff hitter and 1 year of being an average leadoff hitter on his resume, F) actually has a thing called Power for all of Tavares' speed he has a CAREER total of 60 doubles. Dickerson's absolute floor is Corey Patterson with better OBP (.260/.320/.450) and Id take that over a known quality like Tavares. Why waste the abs on a known when you got a guy in house that couldnt possibly do much worse plus Duhhhsty wouldnt have the MO to keep him in the leadoff spot like (Tavares/Patterson). If Dickerson struggles he still provides you with great defense, hit him low what do you get from Tavares???

[love_that_reefer]

Taveras is an upgrade over Patterson and if Willy sucks, Dickerson would be right there waiting to take over. This doesn't hurt the Reds at all. Not in the field or in the checkbook.