Dunn continues streak of walks

[CincyRedsFan30]

Yup. That has been the whole issue I think many in this thread have missed. Dunn would do MUCH more if he didn't keep batting that low in the order. He just doesn't see enough pitches where he's at. He needs to hit 2nd or 3rd to be used effectively. I'm actually leaning toward 3rd, which is where hitters like Pujols hit.

[Sea Ray]

Of course it's better to make more contact. To argue that contact often results in DPs as a reason to strike out is too ridiculous to even comment. I could argue that sometimes DPs are better than strike outs. On Sunday Austin Kearns grounded into a DP with the bases loaded. That wasn't good but it did score a run something a strike out wouldn't have.

But let's not go there. Can't we all agree that if Adam Dunn makes more contact there's a better chance that something good will happen (hits, HRs, SFs) rather than something bad (DPs)?

Anyone who answers that they'd prefer Adam Dunn keep striking out 200 times a year so we don't risk more double plays will not even get a response from me.

[Sea Ray]

Yup. That has been the whole issue I think many in this thread have missed. Dunn would do MUCH more if he didn't keep batting that low in the order. He just doesn't see enough pitches where he's at. He needs to hit 2nd or 3rd to be used effectively. I'm actually leaning toward 3rd, which is where hitters like Pujols hit.

I think Dunn should be 3rd and Casey 5th or 6th. But I don't want Dunn 2nd.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Of course it's better to make more contact. To argue that contact often results in DPs as a reason to strike out is too ridiculous to even comment. I could argue that sometimes DPs are better than strike outs. On Sunday Austin Kearns grounded into a DP with the bases loaded. That wasn't good but it did score a run something a strike out wouldn't have.

But let's not go there. Can't we all agree that if Adam Dunn makes more contact there's a better chance that something good will happen (hits, HRs, SFs) rather than something bad (DPs)?

Anyone who answers that they'd prefer Adam Dunn keep striking out 200 times a year so we don't risk more double plays will not even get a response from me.

I've already posted articles on strikeouts being just another out... especially for players like Dunn who walk a lot and hit HR. You can go on believing what you want.

[missionhockey21]

Can't we all agree that if Adam Dunn makes more contact there's a better chance that something good will happen (hits, HRs, SFs) rather than something bad (DPs)?

It's all about getting pitches to hit. If Dunn can handle pitches in an AB that would eventually result in a walk, I would take my chance with Dunn handling those pitches. When he hits it, he hits it hard and results come.

[CincyRedsFan30]

I give up. Have fun folks.

[missionhockey21]

I think Dunn should be 3rd and Casey 5th or 6th. But I don't want Dunn 2nd.

Dunn third would be a good place to try him out for sure. I also think it would be a sign of good faith from the coaches that they believe in Dunn and his talents which could boost his confidence. It has been noted that no one other than Dunn himself is his biggest critic. He rags on himself to the point you feel bad for him.

[Wally Mo Pena]

Man, I bet [random player] would be a lot better if he upped his average by 50 points.

I like my new sig.

A couple things. First, f*** you.

Second, all players would be better if they increased their averages, but not all players are hitting .230 and being called one of the best hitters in the game. That's called a discrepancy and is worthy of discussion. My point has been in this thread that if adam dunn kept his OBP the same but had more hits (meaning necessarily less walks) that he would be a better player than he is. This argument was disputed by several here who have said that average doesn't matter if OBP is high. I see you agree with me in this argument, so thanks for the support. Our agreement on the batting average does not change my first point however.

As for your sig, HRs and walks are personal stats and don't translate into overall contributions or wins as is obvious in Dunn's case. Dunn hits HRs that are great, but relatively infrequent compared to the number of games played. If all you did was walk 100 times and hit 40 HR's, you would be good, but you wouldn't be as productive as someone who had an equally high OPS but got more hits and xbh over the course of the season. Also,
f*** you.

[Sea Ray]

I've already posted articles on strikeouts being just another out... especially for players like Dunn who walk a lot and hit HR. You can go on believing what you want.

Right and I stated why it's not just another out.

Overall this team will never get fix its offensive woes until the strike outs come down

[CincyRedsFan30]

Right and I stated why it's not just another out.

Overall this team will never get fix its offensive woes until the strike outs come down

4 of the 5 teams who have the fewest strikeouts in the NL right now are in the mid-bottom part of the league in Runs Scored. Obviously the lack of strikeouts aren't helping them out much.

[Sea Ray]

I give up. Have fun folks.

One suggestion that might lead to more productive discussions is if you acknowledge good points on the other side. Folks on my side of the argument have stated that he is a very good player and that his high OBP is a huge asset to his game, but you refuse to acknowledge our points that singles drive in runs where walks don't and that 200 strike outs in a year is not a good thing.

Then it becomes a discussion. Throwing up long diatribes written by other folks on the merits of strikeouts is minimally productive.

Just my $0.02...

[CincyRedsFan30]

Those "diatribes" have been written by individuals who has studied the situations for years and have drawn scientific conclusions as a result.

[Sea Ray]

Those "diatribes" have been written by individuals who has studied the situations for years and have drawn scientific conclusions as a result.

But it doesn't advance the discussion. It becomes a lecture on your part. Let's have more discussions and you won't run so many people off.

[Wally Mo Pena]

I think you're missing the point here. What I'm saying is this:

Let's see two players are similar except one has 45 singles and the other has 45 BB. The same hitter who has 45 singles is also more prone to DPs because of the amount of contact they're making. It all goes hand-in-hand. They do hit more singles, but they also hit into DPs during other AB, which takes the positive benefits of the singles over the walks down a lot.

again, your logic is flawed because you are guessing that the player who gets singles hits into more DPs. but singles are not outs, and don't predict the number of outs you will make. period. you can't say that because someone hits singles they hit into dp's more than someone who walks more.

take garret anderson and kevin millar. anderson has 47 singles 6 walks and has hit into 4 dps.

millar has 34 singles 18 walks and has hit into 5. Because he's not as good. Look at his batting average, millar makes a lot more outs in general.

the comparison you are trying to make is between guys who make outs by strikeouts and guys who make outs by contact. It's not the same thing as singles and walks, no matter how much you want it to be.

in fact, guys like dunn and sexson (that k and walk a lot, the thing you are saying is the same thing) are actually quite rare. Most people who walk a lot don't swing and miss much, and don't strike out often. 8 out of the top ten guy in walks in the majors have walked more than they have struck out. dunn has k'd 60 and walkd 45. most of the time high walks means MORE contact, and by your own argument more DPs.

[CincyRedsFan30]

the comparison you are trying to make is between guys who make outs by strikeouts and guys who make outs by contact. It's not the same thing as singles and walks, no matter how much you want it to be.

in fact, guys like dunn and sexson (that k and walk a lot, the thing you are saying is the same thing) are actually quite rare. Most people who walk a lot don't swing and miss much, and don't strike out often. 8 out of the top ten guy in walks in the majors have walked more than they have struck out. dunn has k'd 60 and walkd 45. most of the time high walks means MORE contact, and by your own argument more DPs.
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It all comes back to OBP and OPS. Those players who single more instead of BB don't usually avoid as many Outs, which is the overall goal. When you're not as patient, you may hit more singles, but you also will record Outs more often. It's all about making Outs.