Paps Being Wishy-Washy, rival closers have another competition

[NYgiantsfan5689]

Papelbon first said he should get the first call to close the ASG should the opportunity arise.

We've both earned that right; us, by winning the World Series and having the opportunity of having our manager there and our team being represented, and Mariano by what he's done for this role, we're in Yankee Stadium and blah, blah, blah. It's not that easy. Everybody thinks it's a cut and dry answer, but it's not. If I was managing the team, I would close. I'm not managing the team, so it don't matter.

Rivera says the following in response:

It's definitely tough, but we're here in Yankee Stadium. I think I should get the shot. I definitely would love to. Knowing [Red Sox manager] Terry Francona, I have a feeling he'll put me there if we have the opportunity to close the game.

Paps then backs off:

I'm making a statement right now, saying I don't want it, I want [Rivera] to have it. I said all that earlier, but that's the way I feel about it. This is what I think, of course I want to close the game out. I wouldn't be Jonathan Papelbon if I didn't want to close the game out. But at the same time, there's also things within this game I have to understand and people have to understand. It doesn't always work out that way. I feel I owe a lot to this game and that's one of the things I owe to this game, to let an elder statesman go ahead of me.

My thoughts:
Rivera's being honest, Paps is covering his butt for his comments. I don't blame either of them wanting to pitch in that situation. I don't think anyone WOULDN'T want to close out the ASG. But you gotta be smart about what you say. Plus...he called Mo an "elder statesman." Not sure how I would take that, but it sounds a bit like an insult lol. Anyways, this is going to be a very interesting and tough decision for Francona. Either way he goes he makes some people happy and some upset. We'll see what happens.

Your thoughts?

[Halladay_is_God]

Rivera or Papelbon both don't deserve

[ljshorty89]

First off, elder statesmen is a statement of respect for a guy who's been in the game longer than any other guy in that bullpen.

Second off, I actually agree with Papelbon. If you take out Yankee Stadium, you actually have a decent debate. Do I still go with Mo, yes. But it's not cut and dry. You have to ponder it. Now, the reason Mo is so obviously the answer is because of where the game is held, and that's fine, but Paps is probably thinking about the question from only the perspective of ability, not how fitting it would be for Mo. I think Paps actually was fairly torn, hence why he didn't demand to close, or say that he absolutely should, rather saying that he would use himself as the closer, which is something many closers would say, right or wrong.

I think the media(and now you) are making too much of a big deal out of it. Who the hell knows if the AL will even need a closer? If the NL wins, this becomes a moot point. Hell, what if Mo blows the save? Then Francona looks like a good guy, but he still loses.

[nyjunc]

Rivera or Papelbon both don't deserve

Nobody has been better than Rivera in the AL this year and nobody has been better all-time, why wouldn't Mariano have derves to close it out if there was a chance to do so?

[Lance324]

Nobody has been better than Rivera in the AL this year and nobody has been better all-time, why wouldn't Mariano have derves to close it out if there was a chance to do so?

First off, how many threads do you Yankee "homer" fans have to have arguing whether or not Rivera is the "Greatest Closer of All-Time"? He's right up there, no doubt about it, but it's not cut and dry that he's the best closer of all time, at least not in an objective person's mind, so give it up already.

Secondly, I for one agree with "Halladay" that there is a more deserving player than either Papelbon or Rivera on the All-Star roster if this game were not played at Yankee Stadium. As a matter of fact, there are two... Joe Nathan and K-Rod. All-Star games should be based on this years performance, not what players have done in the past. So don't start preaching about what Rivera did in 2000 or 1995, let's talk about this season. If we voted for what players have done in past seasons just imagine some of the teams we would end up with. Rivera's first half has been great and he deserves to be there. But I can't say that it's been better than Nathan or K-Rod.

Finally, Given the circumstances and that this game was played in Yankee Stadium and Rivera has legendary status as a Yankee; he deserved to close this game if the AL had the lead going into the ninth.

And now a few ramblings about Papelbon...
I was so glad to hear that I shouldn't have to hear Curt Schilling run his mouth anymore, and it seems Papelbon is compelled to take his place and run his big mouth when there is no need. He wouldn't make a pimple on Rivera's behind (not this season and certainly not career wise) and for him to even insinuate that is stupid. I wish he just learn to keep his mouth shut and play ball.

[ljshorty89]

First off, I disagree that Rivera is not the cut and dry best closer ever. No closer has ever been as dominant both in the regular season, and more importantly the post season. His post season numbers are INSANE. He has an ERA of about 1.30, and he has closed out more than his fair share of World Series games, in 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, and even a couple since, despite his team losing. I am not a Yankee fan, but I do respect a select group of Yankee players, and Mo is one of them. If you don't think he's the best at what he does....well, lets just say we disagree.

[catman]

The whole statement indicates that Paps gives Rivera the respect he deserves. He called Rivera the "Godfather" of closers and said it was an honor to be on the same field with him. The NY Post, as they usually do, took a statement out of context and blew it up just to sell papers. Is their circulation that bad that they need help? Are they in financial trouble? Or do they just enjoy stirring the pot a bit more?
As to Mo being the best closer of all times, well Gossage and Eckersley were pretty good, as were Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter.

[bwitty24]

Actually I think they are in financial trouble...I hear that the Daily News and the Post may combine.

[NYgiantsfan5689]

Actually I think they are in financial trouble...

that's pretty much the case with most newspapers nowadays. nobody wants to read a newspaper now that everything's electronic and instant

[ljshorty89]

Not to mention that everyone knows the Post and the Daily News are toilet paper compared to Newsday and the other papers not only in NY, but in the nation...

[nyjunc]

First off, how many threads do you Yankee "homer" fans have to have arguing whether or not Rivera is the "Greatest Closer of All-Time"? He's right up there, no doubt about it, but it's not cut and dry that he's the best closer of all time, at least not in an objective person's mind, so give it up already.

Secondly, I for one agree with "Halladay" that there is a more deserving player than either Papelbon or Rivera on the All-Star roster if this game were not played at Yankee Stadium. As a matter of fact, there are two... Joe Nathan and K-Rod. All-Star games should be based on this years performance, not what players have done in the past. So don't start preaching about what Rivera did in 2000 or 1995, let's talk about this season. If we voted for what players have done in past seasons just imagine some of the teams we would end up with. Rivera's first half has been great and he deserves to be there. But I can't say that it's been better than Nathan or K-Rod.

Finally, Given the circumstances and that this game was played in Yankee Stadium and Rivera has legendary status as a Yankee; he deserved to close this game if the AL had the lead going into the ninth.

And now a few ramblings about Papelbon...
I was so glad to hear that I shouldn't have to hear Curt Schilling run his mouth anymore, and it seems Papelbon is compelled to take his place and run his big mouth when there is no need. He wouldn't make a pimple on Rivera's behind (not this season and certainly not career wise) and for him to even insinuate that is stupid. I wish he just learn to keep his mouth shut and play ball.

First off it IS cut and dry, Mariano is by far the best. Papelbon is off to a great start but you can tell he's going to flame out fairly quickly. The guy is nuts.

I will post it as many times as need be to counter the Yankee haters.

Please explain to me how Rodriguez and Nathan deserved it over Mariano?

Mariano: 1.06 ERA, 23 saves, ZERO blown saves, 4 BB, 50 Ks, .64 WHIP, .190 OBA
Rodriguez: 2.36 ERA, 38 saves, 3 blown saves, 26 BBs, 41 Ks, 1.26 WHIP, .305 OBA
Nathan: 1.13 ERA, 27 saves, 2 blown saves, 10 BBs, 46 Ks, .93 WHIP, .245 OBA
Papelbon: 2.43 ERA, 28 saves, 4 blown saves, 7 BBs, 51 Ks, '96 WHIP, .248 OBA

The only categories Mariano does not lead in are saves(which are an overrated stat, it's the least important of the other #s) and K's- he's 1 behind Papelbon.

Yep, nathan & rodriguez clearly deserved to close ahead of Mariano

[Lance324]

It's not "cut and dry" or else you wouldn't get arguement from multilple posters on here ever time you preach that he's by far the best ever. I will not get in this disagreement again in yet another thread. Tired of discussing it. As far as Papelbon, why even put him in this discussion other than that he ran his mouth. He's not even in the top 20 all-time closers, and he's not even in the top 3 in the AL. Particularly lately!!!! There is no comparison. If I'm discussing relievers that rival Rivera all time, it's the previously mentioned Eckersley, Gossage and Lee Smith, maybe Rollie Fingers. If I'm talking about current closers, we're talking Brad Lidge, K-Rod and Nathan. Papelbon is good, but he's not in the elite class with these guys. And I agree with you, I don't see his superstar status being prolonged one.

[ljshorty89]

First off Kyle, I agree with you, but you're not arguing well. If you're going to discount saves, then Blown Saves become an overrated category as well. And I think blown saves are misleading. As I've said, Mo has blown a couple of ties. Not a big deal, but it wouldn't show up even though he LOST the game for his team.

Second, Lance, do not even TRY to mention Brad Lidge among the elite current closers. Yeah, he's had a good 3 months, but let the guy ****ing be consistent, something he's never done. Hoffman, Wagner, Rivera are the top 3 current closers(not in that order).

I disagree with one thing. I think Paps is one of the elite closers of the current day(not #1, but top 5 or so), and will continue. Will he continue to be as ridiculously dominant as he was last year, probably not. But he has the stuff and the personality to be GREAT.

[bwitty24]

um, Billy Wagner elite? I will pretend that was not said. Also, you have to consider Nathan. We should not even be mentioning anyone from AAA (NL). The closers in the AL are clearly better.

Also, the numbers DON'T LIE!!!

[NYgiantsfan5689]

First off Kyle, I agree with you, but you're not arguing well. If you're going to discount saves, then Blown Saves become an overrated category as well. And I think blown saves are misleading. As I've said, Mo has blown a couple of ties. Not a big deal, but it wouldn't show up even though he LOST the game for his team.

Second, Lance, do not even TRY to mention Brad Lidge among the elite current closers. Yeah, he's had a good 3 months, but let the guy ****ing be consistent, something he's never done. Hoffman, Wagner, Rivera are the top 3 current closers(not in that order).

I disagree with one thing. I think Paps is one of the elite closers of the current day(not #1, but top 5 or so), and will continue. Will he continue to be as ridiculously dominant as he was last year, probably not. But he has the stuff and the personality to be GREAT.

OK. LJ, those blown ties show up in the loss column, so they do show up. And blown saves are not overrated. It's just like I think wins are overrated, but losses are not. There's no real way to keep track of a "good outing" because it's hard to define a good outing. Wins are very difficult to quantify because there can be situations that aren't the pitcher. Like he gets bailed out by an offensive explosion. However with a loss, that's the pitcher's fault 95% of the time. There is only a cut and dry way of quantifying "bad outings": blown saves and losses.