Most Likely To Throw Perfect Game

[Dry1313]

If Cain was on the Yankees, he could have 19 wins too. Plus Cain and Lincecum DO play in a tougher division than the Yankees. You can go by wins, I'll go by stuff. Lincecum and Cain have better stuff than Wang. Hell, all the pitchers I named have better stuff.

Right. How many World Series Champions have you produced in the past 12 years?

We have what? '96, '98, '99, '00, '04, '07.

You have '01.

We have how many Championship Series Teams? '96 (2), '97, '98, '99 (2), '00, '01, '03 (2), '04 (2), '07.

You have: '98, '01, '02, '07 (2)

Let's strictly look at last year you say? We had 2 playoff teams, so did you. Let's take a wash, because we Won the WS, even though you had two LCS teams.

Still not happy? I mean, I don't know what to say...how about it's harder for an AL pitcher to throw a perfect game because of the DH? How about Wang is closer than everyone on the list except Verlander, and way closer than Cain or Lincecum?

Drop the homerism.

With Joba and Mo, I'm not saying he is the king of complete games...I'm saying there's only one other pitcher I can think of who's effective that late into the game, and he's really the guy I think should be #1 on this list:

Roy Halladay

No love?

Wang is no ace so I didn't put him up there. Plus like KOZ said, he doesn't go deep into games like every Yankees starter. I don't see how he has a better shot than most of those ****ers. I wouldn't even put Wang in the class of Johnson, Cone, Wells or Rogers. Wang's good but not that good. He would be the number three pitcher for the Giants behind Cain and Lincecum. You are right about Halladay though.

No ace? Let's check that: 2nd in CY voting, didn't make the voting last year, but a nearly identical pitcher (barring a 100 discrepancy in K numbers won it.)

Wang's 162 game AVG is: 19-7, 3.73 ERA, 224 IP...an ERA 70 points below the average...right, he's no ace...

Wait, the guy who's won more games than anyone over the last 2 seasons would be the Giants #3, with practically the same ERA as Cain in a much tougher league, and a better ERA than Lincecum who hasn't even pitched one full season?...wow, I would love to have somebody explain this logic to me. And why can't Wang get up there when he's come closer than probably anybody on that list to throwing a perfect game??

Thank you.

Sucks your a Yankee fan...guess we're homers.

Wang's won more games for the Yankees than anyone over the last 2 seasons?

Did he score the runs for them in those games?

There have been so many rep worthy comments lately I ran out a long time ago...mission you need to change the 24-hour rule

Valid point.

I'm not going to debate that, but stuff does not translate into success...Kyle Farnsworth clearly has better stuff than Hideki Okajima, for example.

Or let's say, Jeff Weaver versus Gil Meche.

Yankees actually have an offense to supply runs.

Cain had 3.09375 runs scored per game he pitched.
Wang had 6.43 runs scored per game he pitched.

Truth on the run support.

Cain's team also gave up 4 or more runs in 20/32 starts.
Wang's team gave up 4 or more in 14/30...I mean, I think that speaks to bullpen and defense more than run support...

Half the time Wang would pitch and the opposing team would score less than 4...

2/3 of the time Cain pitched, they would give up more than 4.

I think that's a better sign than run support. So Wang won a few games he shouldn't have...Cain lost a few. Wang also pitched better. In a harder league. Against better hitters.

Farnsworth has better stuff? When did this shit happen? Just because he throws hard doesn't mean he has good stuff. Kyle has always been a thrower and never a pitcher.

Bullshit. Farnsworth has sick movement...he likes to throw ****ing sliders though...I hate when people talk about things they don't know like they're in the know.

He does have great stuff, he just locates it poorly.

And throws too many sliders, a la Jeff Nelson.

eh, a 100 mph fastball isnt stuff. thats just heat. his fastball doesnt move much.

Watch games man...he has nasty movement...he just loves his crappy slider.

Which is movement.

No Maddux's fastball=movement. 98 mph with no movement=moon shots. You will hard pressed to find anyone who thinks Farnsworth has ever had good stuff.

WOW

Read scouting reports.

"Kyle Farnsworth has dominant stuff but has trouble locating his slider at times, as well as serving up the occasional arrow-straight fastball that catches a little too much of the plate. Nonetheless, Farnsworth was reasonably effective in both middle relief and as a setup man, but he always seems to fall a little short of meeting expectations based purely on his stuff."

Chicago Cubs - 2004

"movement" doesn't mean from the pitcher's hand to the catcher's glove.

"movement" means the ball not traveling a straight line in that path.

As LTR pointed out, Greg Maddux has movement in his fastball. Jake Peavy does as well.

When they throw a fastball it doesn't just go straight to the catcher's glove. It dances around a bit. (Jake's is kinda freaky sometimes.)

I don't really know about Farnsworth, cuz I've never really seen him pitch, but if he has a straight 100 mph fastball as stated in this thread that's not movement. That's just heat.

Judging by his success in the major league level, however, I'd guess the assessment that he had none is correct.

Wrong. It's his slider. Glad you admit that you don't really know, unlike reefer

Listen, I'm not saying Wang is horrible. I just don't think think he is in the top tier of starting pitching. He's solid #2 guy like a Chris Young to a Jake Peavy or a Dan Haren to Brandon Webb.

Wow, dig yourself a bigger hole.

You want to talk about movement, watch a Wang sinker. Seriously, just because he doesn't throw 95 and look like an ace doesn't mean he isn't one. Did Orel Hershiser knock down doors? No. Was he an ace? Yes.

Seriously, stop dealing with classical terms of "ace" and look where it matters...QS, ERA, and W.

Wang is one of the majors' top aces...

Did you ever think that maybe it's not "he's good because the team is so good" but "the team is good because he's so good"

Most underrated pitcher in baseball.

[rockin500]

That's what I'm trying to say. Farnsworth throwing a 100 mph fastball is stuff. He does have stuff, but because his fastball is flat, it's not because of bad stuff, it's bad movement.

no it isnt "stuff". movement is part of stuff. Zambrano's filthy diving fastball is "stuff". Kerry Wood's slurve was "stuff". Nolan ryan's wicked curve was stuff.

Farnsworth has never had stuff. i witnessed his garbage for 5 years on the north side.

[love_that_reefer]

Wow Dry, don't know where to start so I will just go off!

Your first babbling was something about world championships. Funny since that's not the topic. The NL West was by far a tougher division than the AL East. Four teams over .500 and the best pitching in all of MLB. Wang is not closer than everyone on the list but you can have your opinion. Notice I didn't have Cain or Lincecum on there?

The you say Cain lost a few? A few? He lost a lot of games where he got no run support or the Giants bullpen blew the game for him. To say he lost just a few is an insult. Go look at the box scores. The AL is a harder league but ever so slightly. NL has more homeruns, better ERA not including pitcher's ABs and the exact same slugging percentage. The AL does score more runs but by the smallest margin.

Here's where you absolutely blew my ****ing fuse saying I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I do know what I'm talking about. For anyone to suggest that Kyle Farnsworth has movement obviously is the one that doesn't know what the hell they're talking about! Farnsworth has never had good movement on his pitches which is why he doesn't succeed as a pitcher. His fastballs are flat and they get pounded. Everyone in the league knows what he throws and he makes no adjustments whatsoever. I have followed him from Chicago to now NY and he is the exact same "thrower" he has always been. Your bullshit defense that he throws too many sliders goes under movement on his pitches. His ****ing sliders don't slide!!! Hence no movement! His stuff is weak and so are his numbers!!! You say bullshit, I say the truth. I watch more baseball than anyone on this here forum and do know a lot about this game and one of the known facts is that Farnsworth is good based on his stuff. You've watched his as a Yankee while I've seen his whole career!

I love how you posted a scouting report that backs my argument! Thanks for making me look even better! It's so good, I'll post it again.

Kyle Farnsworth has dominant stuff but has trouble locating his slider at times, as well as serving up the occasional arrow-straight fastball that catches a little too much of the plate. Nonetheless, Farnsworth was reasonably effective in both middle relief and as a setup man, but he always seems to fall a little short of meeting expectations based purely on his stuff."

Case Closed!! Wang is an ace, an ace of the Yankees. Bring him to SF, he is not. No one said Wang was terrible. Didn't say you couldn't oick him either. Only 8 spots on the poll bro. So you're right in saying he's an ace and dead ****ing wrong on Farnsworth.

[HollywoodLeo]

Peavy doesn't even go more than 7 innings anymore, forget perfect games much less complete games.

I didn't get that memo

signed,
Joe Torre

[DirtyKash]

That was pretty sick indeed.

[missionhockey21]

The absence of Aaron Harang makes me vomit with rage.

[HollywoodLeo]

I abused my powers only because it was you, Mission

[love_that_reefer]

This is for Dry.

Matt Cain vs the Red Sox- 7 IP, 3 hits, 1 ER
Cain vs the Angels- 8 IP, 1 hit, 0 ER.
Cain vs A's- 9 IP, 1 hit, 0 ER.

Wang is still closer than Cain? Nope and Cain wasn't even on the list.

[Dry1313]

Wang vs.
ARI: 7 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 2 K
NYM: 8.2 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 10 K
SF: 6.1 IP, 6 H, 4 ER, 0 K

That was last year.

How many starts has Cain gone 7 in his career? Let's look at percentages:
Wang: 8/18, 18/34, 14/30 = 40/80= 50% (he has 2 relief appearances, I went through gamelogs)
Cain: 3/7, 12/31, 16/32 = 31/70= >50% (he has a relief appearance or two also)

Wang pitches deeper into games...Wang has had maybe 3 or 4 games less than 4 innings...Cain has had a ton.

Cain's allowed 36 HR in his career...Wang has allowed 30...and started 10 more games, pitching in places like Fenway and Yankee Stadium.

There numbers are nearly identical...except Wang faces better hitting, and Cain strikes out a lot more.

In fact, it's basically shown by there stats that they are the same pitcher essentially barring strikeouts...and the fact that Wang is consistent and Cain isn't.

[realmofotalk]

That's what I'm trying to say. Farnsworth throwing a 100 mph fastball is stuff. He does have stuff, but because his fastball is flat, it's not because of bad stuff, it's bad movement.

no it isnt "stuff". movement is part of stuff. Zambrano's filthy diving fastball is "stuff". Kerry Wood's slurve was "stuff". Nolan ryan's wicked curve was stuff.

Farnsworth has never had stuff. i witnessed his garbage for 5 years on the north side.

I don't even know anymore what "stuff" means. I just know velocity and movement are two separate things.

[love_that_reefer]

Wang vs.
ARI: 7 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 2 K
NYM: 8.2 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 10 K
SF: 6.1 IP, 6 H, 4 ER, 0 K

So how is that even close to a perfect game than Cain? I was bringing up instances in which Cain faced the "tougher" league and did very well. A one hitter against the A's is closer than Wang ever got. I also said in the very beginning of this thread that Cain was on the poll because he wasn't consistent enough. Wang and Cain have the same amount of CGs and shutouts.

[browntown653]

So...after a 2-hit complete game against the Red Sox, can we consider Wang an ace now?? And being that he was three plays away from a perfect game, perhaps putting him on this list isn't so crazy?...

[love_that_reefer]

He looked good last night no doubt.

[love_that_reefer]

Cain has a no-hitter through five.

[browntown653]

What are the odds?