Almost back to full strength

[HollywoodLeo]

My main problem is I can't critisize someone for making a move (or lack of a move) when I, myself, agreed with it when it was made. Burroughs was pretty good last year, for the most part, and I saw no reason why he shouldn't continue to improve. Granted he didn't display much power last year, but I attributed that to him being forced into the leadoff spot. The bottom line is I, too, wanted him starting at third this year so I won't critisize Towers for thinking the same thing. IMO it didn't become obvious that Burroughs needed to be replaced until we were already well into this season...and even then not till June-ish. (Burroughs was on a tear even before the May streak. He was hitting something like .330 late April, early May) And since, at least in my opinion, it wasn't obvious that we needed something done for third base until mid-season that's where all my logic I put forth applies in that it takes time to make deals and decide which one will be the best.
By the way, The Red Sox probably did nix the deal due to not wanting Burroughs...but keep in mind that they did this after Burroughs proceeded to produce the horrid year he's been having (minus a slightly hot April)
And you say no one's advoacating rash moves, and I'm sure you aren't when you think of that concept at face value, but when someone complains about them "waiting till the last second to fix the issue" that implies to me that the complainer wanted something done ASAP once it became obvioius that there was an issue to begin with.
Now, if you simply think it was obvious that we needed a new third baseman before the season even started (even though you, yourself stated that you haven't given up on Burroughs yet) then we simply have a difference in opinion...or at least had one.

As far as "this team has holes that have been there for years" I have to slightly disagree with this as well. Centerfield hasn't always been a hole, it wasn't a hole until we created it by filling in the hole behind the plate. (an everday starter Towers has managed to acquire, I might add) And even then, the only knock on the replacement for this year (Dave Roberts) is that he gets hurt a bit too much.
Third base, at least in my opinion..and i'm sure Towers' as well based on his actions, or lack therof..wasn't an obvious hole until this year and Towers went ahead and filled that void with Joe Randa, albeit temporarily. (as I don't think 35 yr old Randa is a permanant fix)
5th starter has been a clutch, and with limited payroll, may very well always be one. (we probably agree on a slight issue in that regard, so no need to go off on a tangent on that)

He's shown his shortcomings when it comes to contract negotiations, no trade clauses, back loaded contracts, player choices, etc

I'm not completely a Towers defender, as I said I just can't find myself critisizing someone for making moves that I agreed with at the time, even if they do prove to be the wrong one in the end. But, at the same time, they are proving to be the wrong ones anyways, so I won't argue against a change in office either. But to respond to the above quote, none of that would really look bad on him if the players he gave those contracts to played to the level that they were expected to when they were signed. So the only real shot in that quote is the last one (player choices). Well that, and the NTC, as i'm growing a disliking of the concept of handing that out regardless of who you give it to.
Basically, nobody would argue if Towers were to give a back loaded contract to Jake Peavy or Khalil Greene right now, but if they stopped producing when the backloaded end of the contract came up, all of a sudden KT would (yet again) be public enemy number one....which is pretty much what happend with Phil Nevin when he signed a contract extention right after hitting 41 HRs and 100+ RBIs in a season.

[padrefanforever]

My main problem is I can't critisize someone for making a move (or lack of a move) when I, myself, agreed with it when it was made. Burroughs was pretty good last year, for the most part, and I saw no reason why he shouldn't continue to improve. Granted he didn't display much power last year, but I attributed that to him being forced into the leadoff spot. The bottom line is I, too, wanted him starting at third this year so I won't critisize Towers for thinking the same thing. IMO it didn't become obvious that Burroughs needed to be replaced until we were already well into this season...and even then not till June-ish. (Burroughs was on a tear even before the May streak. He was hitting something like .330 late April, early May) And since, at least in my opinion, it wasn't obvious that we needed something done for third base until mid-season that's where all my logic I put forth applies in that it takes time to make deals and decide which one will be the best.
By the way, The Red Sox probably did nix the deal due to not wanting Burroughs...but keep in mind that they did this after Burroughs proceeded to produce the horrid year he's been having (minus a slightly hot April)
And you say no one's advoacating rash moves, and I'm sure you aren't when you think of that concept at face value, but when someone complains about them "waiting till the last second to fix the issue" that implies to me that the complainer wanted something done ASAP once it became obvioius that there was an issue to begin with. Well to me it means just what it says "they waited until the last minute", nothing more nothing less....we've been in here for the whole year talking about things like this, including Burroughs, so you can't say that it's something that just now came up. Also at the end of last year they had started talking about the lack of production by Burroughs, and how that wasn't going to be something they continued to allow. All I was trying to say is that you could see very early by Burroughs SOFT .300 with nearly no extra base hits, that the power wasn't developing, and IMO a move should have been made in May, or at least seriously explored in May, not just a platoon job.
Now, if you simply think it was obvious that we needed a new third baseman before the season even started (even though you, yourself stated that you haven't given up on Burroughs yet) then we simply have a difference in opinion...or at least had one.

As far as "this team has holes that have been there for years" I have to slightly disagree with this as well. Centerfield hasn't always been a hole, it wasn't a hole until we created it by filling in the hole behind the plate. Who probably wont be here next year CF has been a hole since Finley left, that's a few years ago now, Kotsay underperformed, Payton was a joke, and as much as I like the sparkplug that is Dave Roberts, he's a 4th OFer at best for just about any team (an everday starter Towers has managed to acquire, I might add) And even then, the only knock on the replacement for this year (Dave Roberts) is that he gets hurt a bit too much.
Third base, at least in my opinion..and i'm sure Towers' as well based on his actions, or lack therof..wasn't an obvious hole until this year and Towers went ahead and filled that void with Joe Randa, albeit temporarily. (as I don't think 35 yr old Randa is a permanant fix) I agree, and would like to see Burroughs succeed, but if he's not able, he's got to be replaced. We can't have projects at a power position anymore.
5th starter has been a clutch, and with limited payroll, may very well always be one. (we probably agree on a slight issue in that regard, so no need to go off on a tangent on that) Fair Enough



I'm not completely a Towers defender, as I said I just can't find myself critisizing someone for making moves that I agreed with at the time, even if they do prove to be the wrong one in the end. But, at the same time, they are proving to be the wrong ones anyways, so I won't argue against a change in office either. But to respond to the above quote, none of that would really look bad on him if the players he gave those contracts to played to the level that they were expected to when they were signed. Like Bubba Trammel? So the only real shot in that quote is the last one (player choices). Well that, and the NTC, as i'm growing a disliking of the concept of handing that out regardless of who you give it to.
Basically, nobody would argue if Towers were to give a back loaded contract to Jake Peavy or Khalil Greene right now, but if they stopped producing when the backloaded end of the contract came up, all of a sudden KT would (yet again) be public enemy number one....which is pretty much what happend with Phil Nevin when he signed a contract extention right after hitting 41 HRs and 100+ RBIs in a season.

I understand the idea of backloaded contracts, and I understand many of them were partly caused by the ongoing litigation during the PETCO build, however Phil only produced huge #'s for one season, and shouldn't have been making all this money on such a long ass contract, same goes for Klesko, and that's more of the problem. If you want to sign a 23 year old possible phenom to a longterm deal...I'm all for exploring that idea, but not 30somthings who really never produced consistantly to begin with, and in Nevins case were a defensive liability to the point of having to create space for him elsewhere. Those two mentioned above should have made half that, for half the duration IMO

[HollywoodLeo]

IMO a move should have been made in May, or at least seriously explored in May, not just a platoon job.

So, is discussing a 7 player trade with Boston not "seriously exploring" in your opinion? Again, it takes two to tango. I'll agree all day long that, as long as you hold the viewpoint that Burroughs needed to be replaced durring the offseason that I have no ground to stand on. But, basing off the argument that faith was held in Burroughs to pull through this year, once it became apparant that that wasn't the case, whether that be durring a weak .300 run or after he even started failing to hit the singles, it's not quite that easy to just go out and make a deal right then and there. I don't consider it "waiting till the last minute" just because that's when they come up with what ends up being the best decision/getting the other team to agree to a deal. It's obvious that Towers was indeed "seriously considering" a change when he proposed a deal that would've moved 3 of our starters (including Burroughs) for 4 starting caliber players from Boston. And this is only what was stated to the public, we have no idea what other offers Towers may or may not have had on the table with other teams. All we know is that he had an offer on the table with Boston, that we don't know who shot down and for what reason, and that he eventually went with trading two pitching prospects (one of which was rated best in our system, above Stauffer) for Joe Randa. Could he have pulled the trigger sooner? Sure, but that probably would've been at a steeper price, as the Reds were still weighing their options on where else they can ship Randa off to.

Who probably wont be here next year

So? The point is the "hole" is filled this year, which leaves only, (obviously only IMO and not yours) 2004 with the CF hole after Kotsay's departure.

which brings me to...

Kotsay underperformed

You kidding? Kotsay was great in the outfield. Probably could've been a bit better with the bat, but he was good enough considering his great defense. I'd rank Finley higher than Kotsay, but not by enough to consider Kotsay to be a "hole in Centerfield"
Kotsay was obviously good enough for Billy Beane to give us Ramon Hernandez.

We can't have projects at a power position anymore.

Burroughs wasn't exactly a "project" Burroughs was a super prospect that was expected to be a star, which is why the Padres shifted around Nevin and Klesko the way they did to make room for him. Burroughs was once projected as "the next George Brett" When Burroughs made the majors the same year as Hank Blalock everyone was projecting them two to soon be the best third basemen in their respective leagues, and shoo-ins for ROY. Burroughs was hardly a "project" he is simply a sad case of a super prospect who couldn't make it in the bigs. (at least not yet, and I don't like the outlook) Dennis Tankersly suffered the same fate...

however Phil only produced huge #'s for one season...same goes for Klesko

Come again? Nevin had more than one good season, and Klesko DEFINITELY had more than one good season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/n/nevinph01.shtml

Nevin
1999 - .269 24 HRs, 85 RBIs, .879 OPS
2000 - .303 31 HRs, 107 RBIs, .917 OPS
2001 - .306 41 HRs, 126 RBIs, .976 OPS = contract extention

(You don't get to 8 HRs short of the all time club leader in HRs with just one good year, not even with the power deprived Padres organization)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/kleskry01.shtml

Klesko
1995 - .310 23 HRs, 70 RBIs, 1.004 OPS
1996 - .282 34 HRs, 93 RBIs, .894 OPS
1997 - .261 24 HRs, 84 RBIs, .824 OPS
1998 - .274 18 HRs, 70 RBIs, .832 OPS
1999 - .297 21 HRs, 80 RBIs, .908 OPS
2000 (traded to San Diego) - .283 26 HRs, 92 RBIs .909 OPS
2001 - .286 30 HRs, 113 RBIs .923 OPS
2002 - .300 29 HRs, 95 RBIs .925 OPS (I believe his extention came mid 2002)

As you can see, to insinuate Klesko had just one good year is just ridiculous.

Also, take into consideration PetCo was originally supposed to open in 2002 (vice 2004) In retrospect maybe Towers panicked when the delays came in and didn't take into consideration their age when PetCo would finally open, perhaps he should've said "screw it" and tried to find better "building blocks" that were younger in a newly revised 2 year rebuilding plan, but I won't begrudge Towers for those extentions, especially considering how well they were performing at the time of the extentions. I actually cheered the extentions. Another thing we didn't know at the time of the contract extentions is that, regardless of how much they shouldn't whine about it, PetCo kills HRs, especially to the part of the field where Nevin and Ryno (not to mention Giles) hit most of theirs out to.

[padrefanforever]

Kotsay has always been a good glove.....but while here left much to be desired with the bat.......therefore a hole for us in CF........there is far more to playing the game than just fielding, as I'm sure you know....

Burroughs was rushed up to the MLB level due to Nevin playing a horrific 3rd base. Then the dance was on to find a spot for Nevin, and where to move Klesko. That shouldn't have happened, but it did.......why........Nevin was a liablitity in the field. Nevin was usually able to glove the ball, but then would toss it into the 4th row, and they figured hmmm glove is good.....stick him at 1st where he wont have to throw the ball as much after fielding it. Actually it worked out pretty good, except Klesko is better at 1st and a circus in the OF.

listen......you're showing stats during an era when the best hitters on teams, that got paid like these guys did, were pounding out 30 & 40+ every year........these two were hitting in the 20's-30's.......Nevin had one year in the 40's, and got his contract.....that's the point....simple as that............Nevin for that money should have been hitting 40+ every year, that is what was expected, and was never produced......Klesko for that money should have been mid 30's every year.......in the 1980's those kind of #'s were great.....not anymore.....sorry......don't buy into that one little bit......... Oh by the way if Phil and Ryan were hitting .300 / 30+ / 100+ over the last couple years.....this conversation would NOT be happening either......

As far as Petco killing HR's............power hitting opponents don't seem to have a problem with the dimensions, further proof that these guys aren't the true power hitters they were signed to be. IMO

If Nevin and Klesko were making 3-4 mil/ yr I'd love to have them on board....but that's about all these guys are worth......my problem is the amount they make compared to what they produce...... sorry those stats aren't good when you cross compare them to what other teams star power guys are producing....... they just aren't......and haven't been

[HollywoodLeo]

isten......you're showing stats during an era when the best hitters on teams, that got paid like these guys did, were pounding out 30 & 40+ every year........these two were hitting in the 20's-30's.......Nevin had one year in the 40's, and got his

Nevin was steadily improving every year until he got his contract, that's usually a good sign when extending a contract. Klesko probably was overpaid in comparrison to his production, but had he kept producing the way he had been up till the extention nobody would be complaining about it. (as you, yourself just stated)

Oh by the way if Phil and Ryan were hitting .300 / 30+ / 100+ over the last couple years.....this conversation would NOT be happening either......

Agreed...but that's beside the ponit. Towers didn't resign these guys this year, he extended them when they were still hitting that.

As far as Petco killing HR's............power hitting opponents don't seem to have a problem with the dimensions, further proof that these guys aren't the true power hitters they were signed to be. IMO

Sure, it's not a problem for right handed power hitters who's power [/b]isn't to the opposite side[/b] (such as Nevin's). The WMS building isn't exhuberantly deep. The Park is a problem for left handed Power hitters (Klesko, Giles) and right handed power hitters who's main power is to the opposite field (Nevin). It's not that hard to deduct that when your main power hitters' power is to right-center field and right-center field is the deepest part of the park, and is deeper than your average park at that part, that your power hitters' HR numbers are going to go down.

If Nevin and Klesko were making 3-4 mil/ yr I'd love to have them on board....but that's about all these guys are worth......my problem is the amount they make compared to what they produce...... sorry those stats aren't good when you cross compare them to what other teams star power guys are producing....... they just aren't......and haven't been

I perfectly agree with this. I'm not defending their contracts now. i'm defending their extensions at the time they were made. If they had kept producing at the same level nobody would be arguing with their extensions. In fact, I venture to say had they continued to produce at the same level as they were when they were resigned Padre fans would be clammoring about the fact the Padres actually resigned their power hitters to exhorberant contracts in order to keep them in town. (which is not a common thing) But instead they proceeded to get injured, decline in power, (PetCo certainly didn't help, but I think their numbers would've dropped anyways) and now they're horrendously overpaid.

[padrefanforever]

Shawn Green comes to mind for power hitters that seem to have no problem here, and there are many others hitting from the left side of the plate that don't.....lol......Sexson is a RT hitter that had no trouble with that RCtr gap...... and the shortest part of the ballpark is down the RF line........ so don't tell me it's too tough for lefties........ it should be easier for them than ANYONE else...... that gap out there should be where doubles are born, if HR's are down.......but that's not the way it is........ if Nevin & Klesko's HR #'s are down due to inablility to hit it out of that gap, then the double and triple #'s should be skyrocketing, but that's not the case either. Petco's dimensions are very doable if you hit the ball well, our problem is they aren't hitting the ball well........Klesko better this year than last ( healed shoulder ) but still not great......his avg. is down which means fewer hits.......right ? Oh by the way......Dave Roberts has hit a few HR's in Petco, and I view him as FAR from a power threat.......and he is a lefty.......

[HollywoodLeo]

you're misunderstanding a few things

1) I'm not stating it's impossible to hit HRs out of PetCo

2) I'm not stating that the dimensions of PetCo are the sole reason why Nevin and Klesko's HRs are down, just a contributor to the problem.

3) The "short porch" in right field doesn't make up for the death valley right next to it. It's easier to hit a HR to left field than it is to aim for a small section of seating that jettisons inward.

4) Sexson wouldn't have much of a problem hitting it to deep center in Polo Grounds

5) Just because someone hits one or two HRs in PetCo while visiting doesn't neccesarily mean their overall season numbers wouldn't go down if they played in PetCo 81 games in a year.

6) a deeper OF doesn't neccesarily mean would-be HRs would all turn into doubles and triples. an Outfielder can't catch a HR, he CAN catch a long fly ball if he's positioned correctly and gets the correct read on the fly.

Nevin and Klesko are mainly fly ball hitters, when you hit it into the air there's a better chance that it's going to be caught. One of their problems is that they've been letting PetCo get into their heads and they're trying to hit it out of the park...which leads to many fly balls that get caught at the wall. Again, I never said the Park was the only reason they're struggeling, I simply stated that it doesn't help.

[padrefanforever]

Listen.....I'm just very tired of anyone calling the dimensions of Petco into any conversation.......it's not a large park at any point......

Dimensions:
Left-Field Line: 334 feet
Left Field: 367 feet
Left-Field Alley: 402 feet
Center Field: 396 feet
Right-Field Alley: 411 feet
Right Field: 382 feet
Right-Field Line: 322 feet

411 ft is the furthest part of that park........and if our $8-10mil/ year guys aren't able to get it outta there, and unable to hit it out of a short CF....... listen, it's not the park.......I'm not misconstruing what you're saying, just tired of listening to people talk about Petco like it's HUGE, when in reality isn't not....... if anything the damp air at night is what holds balls down, not the size of the ballpark, which is extremely fair.

Here are Minute Maid's stats......compare the distances

Left field - 315 feet
Left-center - 362 feet
Center field - 435 feet
Deepest point - 436 feet
Right-center - 373 feet
Right field - 326 feet

two spots in that ballpark are HUGE compared to the biggest spot in Petco......the ballpark here is NOT that big.....in fact is a very fair ballpark, the problem is the staff ! Our "power" hitters are barely that, they are second tier power guys at best, that was where I was going with my point. In a day and age where top notch power guys are mashing 40-50 & even 60 HR's, our guys were 20's-30's.......hardly true power threats IMO..........now if thier doubles #'s were skyrocketing......then I'd agree with you, but those aren't either......

[padrefanforever]

Today for the Cards........as of the 3rd inning John Rodriguez, and Edmonds so far have hit HR's to RF......not short porch gimme's either.........further proof that it's the lack of power of our guys......not the ballparks dimensions........just had to add that........ our lefty hitters have zero ground to stand on with regards to lack of HR power........

[riverdunesrat]

So much for the psuedo WS win last night......

[HollywoodLeo]

.........further proof that it's the lack of power of our guys......

just to reiterate what i've already stated...

2) I'm not stating that the dimensions of PetCo are the sole reason why Nevin and Klesko's HRs are down, just a contributor to the problem.

Furthermore, just because some power happy St Louis Cardinals hit a HR in PetCo doesn't mean the park isn't a factor.

To restate another thing i've already stated

5) Just because someone hits one or two HRs in PetCo while visiting doesn't neccesarily mean their overall season numbers wouldn't go down if they played in PetCo 81 games in a year.

1) I'm not stating it's impossible to hit HRs out of PetCo

Oh, by the way, Klesko and Nevin HAVE hit HRs at PetCo...is this further proof as well?.........

I agree that Nevin and Klesko are 2nd tier guys...NOW. I always viewed Klesko as one, but, as stated already, had he continued the consistant 25-30 HRs/year he was doing year in and year out till his extension no one would be complaining.
Nevin hit 24, then 31, then 41 HRs, I would've extended him as well.
You're wasting your energy telling me these guys aren't top teir power hitters now...I KNOW THAT. This debate has kinda gone haywire simply because I seemed to have hit a soft spot in insinuating that PetCo Park just might play somewhat of a factor in the lack of HRs. Even though I state multiple times that it's not the sole reason you continue to retort back like as though that's what i'm saying.

But, in that regards, since you point out the dimensions of PetCo as compared to hitter-haven Minute Maid, there must be something with the stadium that suppresses HRs (damp air?) Whether it be dimensions or damp air or fans doing a mexican hat dance in the stands that suppresses HRs if something's suppresses HRs then the Park IS a factor in their drop in HRs, regardless of how tired you are of hearing about it.

Do me a favor, because my connection is too slow to do it myself. Rather than just pointing out random visiting players that hit a HR in PetCo (because Nevin and Klesko have hit HRs at PetCo as well) look up overall HRs at PetCo from the visiting team at PetCo as compared to visitor HRs at other parks and let me know how the averages shake out. I say use the visiting team, vice overall, because using the enterage of teams that come and go in the stadium makes it so you can't blame lack of HRs or exhuberant amounts of HRs on the talent.

There's got to be something to this stadium, because Klesko, Nevin, and some random Padre fans aren't the only ones constantly talking about PetCo's theivery of HRs. Broadcasters and Sports analysists, guys who are paid to do just what we're doing right now, talk about it as well.

[padrefanforever]

Hey.......a Mexican Hat dance can have extreme adverse effects on many people........ ........you made me laugh out loud on that one.....ty I needed it.....lol.......I'll see if I can find a comparison on visiting team HR's

[padrefanforever]

Just to end this rant............. the Reds came here and hit 14 bombs, I think was the total, in 3 games in Petco this weekend ....................that ballpark will give up the bigfly if the ball is hit.......we can't hit.........there in lies the problem........and many of those were to RF.........

I've been looking for that comparison that you asked for and could only find some #'s of teams vs. teams........not ballparks........I'll keep looking.......I know Petco isn't at the bottom of the rung..........there is no way

[HollywoodLeo]

The Reds certainly didn't help my case, but I think they can hit the ball out of any park.
I'd still like to see the comparrison. I might be able to get on a faster connection in a week or so, i'll try and look it up myself if I do.

[padrefanforever]

Reds aren't alone this year in this.....

I'm still trying to find that as well.........I even put in an email to 1090 am asking them to run the comparison..........but nothing yet..........