Let's Debate

[Kingdom]

It's a Matter of Debating.




Second Chance Theory
The theory states that if an individual may possess the ability to run a 40 time that impresses a scout, is able to score inside and outside on a basketball court, happens to be a left-handed pitcher that throws upwards of 98 miles per hour and has control, or has a triple deke fancier than anything Emilio Estevez or Joshua Jackson had in The Mighty Ducks, they are entitled to a get out of jail or prison free card. And in some cases, they are entitled to many get out free cards. This theory only applies to DUI’s/DWI’s, pot, assault & battery, and minor theft. In some cases, it even applies to murder. I’m sorry, “vehicular homicide”. The theory does not apply to 1st degree murder, “hardcore” narcotics, gambling, or proving you, a veteran, can’t even make the Kansas City 40 man roster. Second chance theory does not take responsibility for those harmed because of the acts of idiocy displayed by the athletes, coaches, and general managers.

Mistakes are a given in life, and there’s no way around it. You’re going to screw up something, someday, sometime, it just will happen. And mostly, you screw up multiple times. It’s human nature. To what degree the mistake you make is, well, going to determine if the rest of your life is undeserving and Hellish, or just a meaningless blip. But, how do people react to your mistakes? The last time you seriously ****ed up, what domino effect did that cause? We can apply that to sports. I’ll skip some particular people in football, in which I could go days and days talking about how I’d personally like to end a certain someone’s career for what they’ve done in the past. Hey, he gets 10 sacks a year; he’s got a suit of armor protecting his life. Instead, let’s dwell on the second chances in baseball. Take the theory, and apply.

You know, the theory doesn’t work with everyone. And it rarely works with public perception. But cases vary. For example: Delmon Young flips a bat at an ump. Yes, Young’s temper hasn’t been the greatest and recently up to that point, neither had his plate discipline. In fact, rage runs well in the Young family. But I digress. Delmon was given a deserving suspension. Most will argue he deserved a far harsher punishment. To that consequence, we also add in the fact he’s been written off by us. While hardly appearing on the major league level, he’s a bust and he’s just another sad sack of tomatoes in the Tampa farm. Most of us on the forum are at or around his age. Maybe you never flipped a bat at your friend, but are you telling me you never lost it before? But hey, not the point I’m making. Quick, tell me the player who flipped his bat- almost hitting the ump not that long after the Young incident. Hint: he’s a well-respected ballplayer who, when he retires, is a borderline hall-of-famer. Did you say Bernie Williams? You’ll say it was unintentional, he never meant to hit anyone, and he was just frustrated. Delmon was frustrated too. But, it was Bernie Williams, a guitar playing former Gold Glover who tends to come up big in the clutch. He doesn’t deserve any ire by the public. Maybe it wasn’t the same thing at all. We’ll never really know what was going through their heads at the time. But for now, Young has been tossed in Josh Hamilton’s hamper while Bernie continues to tear the cover off the ball. We respect Bernie. We hate Delmon.

For that, we don’t want Delmon to have a second chance. He doesn’t deserve it. But apparently because no one cared, Bernie does. Now I ask you, did Jason Giambi deserve a second chance? I'm talking before he re-discovered the Giambino swing. Of course, now Yankee fans are just glad he’s back in stride. Before that? Did you want him gone? I bet you did, but probably because he got paid a whole Hell of a lot to just be hitting in the low .200’s. Do you, the reds fans, forgive Ryan Freel’s DUI’s? “Oh, he was just kicking back a few, having fun.” Lucky for him, his car never collided into another car. A certain football player from above wasn’t so lucky. No, I rephrase that. The mother who lost her life wasn’t so lucky. But, Freel is a hard-nosed player, he plays everywhere, he’s good for the team. So, there are his second and third chances and the reds are over .500 this late into the season. Did he deserve those chances?

We can spin this tune over and over again. The scenarios vary. The laws that do get broken, whether societies or Major League Baseball’s, vary. And the players, they too vary when it comes to character and personality. From what I have gathered, based on this forum and our neighbor, thenflforums, I can easily say that you guys aren’t as forgiving as your favorite teams are. Even the smaller nuances of the list of crime seem to strike a chord with individuals. But not everyone’s beliefs have been tested. What if your favorite athlete does something wrong, besides swinging at ball four? Headline reads Ken Griffey Jr. has been arrested for beating his wife repeatedly. John Smoltz ran his neighbor over with a John Deere, because he was stoned. Derek Jeter is caught snorting cocaine, off Paris Hilton’s chest. Ahem, Barry Zito is involved in a car accident; his blood alcohol level was off the charts. Two people died from the accident, Zito lives. They’re fake headlines. And I don’t want any of those to ever happen. But what if, something along those lines, really does happen? Are you ready to give them a second chance? Are they to be forgiven? More than likely, your team already has.



Special thank you's to both forums in the contributions to threads I made for criminals in professional sports. Additional thanks to Dry1313, Giants666, and Huskerfan for contributing news links to various topics relating to this very idea.

[redsrbetter]

Its true and it is how the professional sports outlook on society is. Not only sports but anyone who is famous get the incredible ability to be irresponsible for their own actions. It is my opinion that if any of those headlines did come forth, I would not appreciate the act they decided to take on. But if they clean up that act and are sincere about it (by proving it over time) they can be forgiven. But a punishment has to suit the crime as well. And when I say crime I mean crime. It is the law that has to be followed no matter how rich and famous you are.

Ryan Freel was an excellent example. I am sure a lot of ballplayers drink, but Freel was not able to hold himself accountable. He definitely needed consequences in that he could have killed himself, or worse someone else.

I would seriously start thinking about running a tighter organization if I were commissioner of a professional sports organization. A zero tolerance level would be strictly adhered to by all athletes on illegal drugs and drinking and driving. I would hold all team's management responsible for any instances which broke these boundaries. A good thing for a team to do would be to guarantee a designated driver for any ballplayer or coach within that team. If you are out drinking that night and give someone on your team a call to request a ride, that player has no choice but to pick you up or at least find someone who will. Or if they are out of town, call a cab for your teammate. These are the kinds of things that create responsibility for those who do not know how to do the right thing.

As KOZ pointed out, we all mess up from time to time. We are all irresponsible at times. But when you are in the limelight, you have to be the example and exceed the standards that the laws uphold every citizen to meet. You are a role model and will be found out if you are doing wrong. Like it or not, you will be looked at in a hypocritical manner. Those who drink and drive will call Freel an idiot. Even though they do it themselves. It is just the way it is. So, in retrospect, these guys should be holding themselves even more accountable as should the commissioner and all managers of each team.

All people do now is see how Hollywood and professional athletes are messing up and they want to judge. When 90% of the league are doing just fine, those few that mess it up, mess it up for everyone. But where is the price being paid?

What I get out of this is a great resemblance of the inbalance of our country. We see those who we look up to not have to suffer consequences that the less fortunate have to fear. But to live in that fear, is to be held accountable for your actions. Its just not that way for these guys and they will never see it without a tighter ship being sailed.

Great read KOZ! +rep

[Giants666]

Don't forget about Roger Clemens in the WS throwing that pieace of bat at Piazza.

[Providence A's]

wait, Bernie Williams is a borderline hall of famer? why? because he was a Yankee? And I don't care if Bill James thinks Bernie will make the HoF...

16 seasons, less than 300 homers (never more than 30 and he only did that once), less than 200 SBs, 1200 RBIs, 1300 runs, 2200 hits, 1 batting title, 4 gold gloves, .864 career OPS...ok, now that I've looked deeper, I admit...borderline...but I think that's a stretch and that he doesn't belong in the HoF...if he gets in it will be because he was a Yankee...

oh yea, 2nd chances, life, yea...

[Giants666]

Yep we all mess up in our life, I just messed up big time in my own life where I was charged with felony counts, but beat the case b/c the PD didn't read me my rights ****ing lucky I tell you. When your a professional athlete they cut you so much god damn slack. A Tighter ran organization that will never happen the owners will never punish a player who makes them $$$$$ and puts butts in the seats. Even if they do it won't justify what they did.

It's sad that pro sports is like this, all this athletes don't realize that little kids look up to them as hero's and role models.......These guys are far from that and no one should look up to them. This gives a bad name to the good guys in pro sports and that sucks. No of us know the good guys in sports b/c we just hear about the bad, it makes it more difficult to seperate these athletes when all give to charities.

This is how are world works money = power everyone is not on the same playing field and it shouldn't be this way but it is and all of us fans will just have to deal with it, we may not like it but it's reality.

[Kingdom]

Thanks for sharing, 666.

[Kingdom]

I forgot to include some special thanks when I posted this, I added them at the bottom.

[Giants666]

Holy ****, forgot about Brett Myers he beats his wife and gets arrested on Friday, then pitches saturday. Charlie Manuel said "Brett has a job to do, He's paid to do it." That's sets a great example doesn't it.

[CrimsonNW]

Holy ****, forgot about Brett Myers he beats his wife and gets arrested on Friday, then pitches saturday. Charlie Manuel said "Brett has a job to do, He's paid to do it." That's sets a great example doesn't it.

His wife's a gold digger. She bailed him out of jail for him to make his start.

[Saber]

Makeup is almost entirely unquantifiable outside of a police blotter, but it's still a vital component of any professional athlete. Anyone who has a job, actually.

Remember, you're taking a kid, giving him a pile of money, and sending him across the country. Hell, he might not even speak English. Sometimes, the kid doesn't adjust. Sometimes, he was broken when he was signed.

[Giants666]

His wife's a gold digger. She bailed him out of jail for him to make his start.

Well ok.....wasn't the point I was making though.

[Dry1313]

Great read. I'll tell you right now, the way I like to see a player get a second chance, and trust me the Yankees give a ton (Strawberry, Gooden, etc.) is not to hold some bullshit press conference, or something assinine like that. The way to get your second shot is to give a small interview, one in which you admit you ****ed up, baseball, football, whatever is your passion, and DON'T SAY YOU'RE GOING TO STOP! Say you may continue the horrendous behavior in the future, you don't really know what will happen, but that your only focus now is the sport, and you hope to be there for your family. Then end it. Screw the touchy feely, you ****ed up, own up, produce, and act like it never happened. Then the adoration will be restored.

[ghettochild]

great read. i know i've screwed up many times in my life so far, and i'm not even 18. i'm greatful today to be where i am, knowing the people i know, and loving the person i love. i've been an alcoholic for the past two years, and 3 weeks ago i decided enough was enough, for real. i'm done with alcohol.

sometimes it baffles me how sometimes pro ball players get away with so much. i think a crucial player you should have mentioned, away from baseball, is chris henry. the guy has had 4 arrests in like 2 months.

anywho great read and i agree on all of it. +rep

[Kingdom]

T.O. could have benefited from a genuine apology. At least temporarily before he opened his mouth again.

[missionhockey21]

(This is just my reply to Zito's article, so I apologize in advance if I cover ground that other replies did as well. I have yet to read through them.)
Very interesting read Zito. Public figures in general, be it politicians (not always of course), actors, musicians, and athletes I think work both ends of the issue. They get much harsher treatment for stepping over the line than the common Joe would, but their path to redemption is much simpler. It all boils down to the 'What have you done for me lately?' mentality. A normal guy might have to re-earn trust, be in the doghouse for awhile with the wife, whatever. Feelings were hurt in otherwords. But unless you idolize a certain player, no personal feelings were hurt, but you act as if they were. Even though an excellent performance could quickly reverse those thoughts. If Brett Myers won the Cy Young and led the Phillies to World Series glory, you think everything would be forgiven with the Philadelphia fans? Of course. Then again, if he finishes the next four seasons with an ERA above 5 and gets bounced around from team to team, he'll be known as 'The Wife Beater.' So it's an interesting dynamic of who and why players might be forgiven. A lot has to do with the type of crime and the perception of the player.

Another possible thought to consider is the effect of the media and how quickly the league forgives a player. Because like you mentioned, the league almost always forgives players faster than the fans but do their forgiveness (and the lack of mentioning whatever incident for quite sometime) make it so we too are a bit more forgiving, out of sight out of mind.

Good stuff Zito, and an interesting topic to cover. Rep coming your way.