Did Gonzalez and Bochy Switch Brains??

[love_that_reefer]

I am arguing with a Braves fan and a Mets fan Of course they want Bonifacio to stay in the leadoff spot!

[HollywoodLeo]

No, but what he said was wrong. He never really wanted to respond to my post, other than to say that it was under .300 before last night's game, which was also untrue. Forgive me for pointing out incorrect facts. I guess we can all just throw out whatever numbers we want, and they're somehow legitimized because they're "close".

I'm not saying people can just throw numbers around, but at the same time there's really no point in harping on it if the inaccuracy as compared to the truth doesn't change the point of the argument.

It'd be different if Bonifacio had a .328 OBP and LTR was calling him a sub-.300 guy, but he was batting .301 at the time of the posts. LTR was off by .002, big whoop.

It'd be like me ignoring your points in favor of telling you what grammatical errors you had in your post.

[bcshorts]

Actually I've probably seen seven or eight of the Marlins games. I watched them sweep the Braves, and get swept by the Pirates. I happen to watch a lot of baseball, contrary to what you seem to believe.

As I've tried to tell you multiple times, Bonifacio and Maybin don't bat 1-2 regularly. Only once every fifth day or so when Baker does not start. Usually Maybin already bats eighth. Bonifacio isn't exactly failing, as he is hitting .274 with a .307 OBP. That's not good, but we're three weeks in. Another couple of games like last night and he's going to be back to being close to where you want a leadoff hitter to be.

Hermida is taking walks at a rate way higher than he ever has in his career, which accounts for his unusually high OBP. Perhaps he is going to keep that up, but I doubt it. And he is only batting .242.

If Bonifacio is your leadoff hitter for the year, you keep him there. You don't move him around because he's "struggling". And I doubt Fredi Gonzalez will. He was raised in the Bobby Cox school of managing, which is a pretty good one, I'd say.

[bcshorts]

I'm not saying people can just throw numbers around, but at the same time there's really no point in harping on it if the inaccuracy as compared to the truth doesn't change the point of the argument.

It'd be different if Bonifacio had a .328 OBP and LTR was calling him a sub-.300 guy, but he was batting .301 at the time of the posts. LTR was off by .002, big whoop.

It'd be like me ignoring your points in favor of telling you what grammatical errors you had in your post.

Actually it wouldn't be the same at all. Because the numbers are truth, they are fact. And they are easily checked facts, that he is simply too lazy to check.

And I dont make gramatical, errors.

[love_that_reefer]

You haven't tried to tell me Bonifacio and Maybin don't usually bat 1-2 multiple times but that's fine, I already knew that as I have watched about every game they've played. Gonzalez did it last night which is why I wrote what was supposed to be a comical piece but of course it just couldn't be that easy. Bonifacio is failing and his numbers are declining at a great rate. Why not stop the bleeding now rather than later? That's what doesn't make sense. Why not try and right the ship now? What's the harm? There is none.

Bruce Bochy batted Dave Roberts and Omar Vizquel 1-2 in the lineup while both were hitting under .250/.300 for too long a couple of years ago which is the reason this thread was made. It makes no sense to construct lineups like this.

Hermida is looking a lot better at the plate and walking at a higher rate like you said. What would be the harm in trying him at leadoff to shake things up? A manger cannot keep going with what isn't working.

If Bonifacio isn't performing well or struggling as you for some reason have it in quotes as if its not true, you have to make the necessary changes. You can't just have a plan and stick with it no matter what. Plans change. I am not against benching him either. That seems to be what is happening today as Helms is in the lineup.

Glad to see you are watching a lot of baseball. Maybe you will get a chance to see what I am talking about since it happens quite often. Even your boy Cox mixes up lineups when he sees a change is needed. That's what makes him a great manager.

[love_that_reefer]

Actually it wouldn't be the same at all. Because the numbers are truth, they are fact. And they are easily checked facts, that he is simply too lazy to check.

And I dont make gramatical, errors.

Too lazy to look or math was off by .002? HMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmm Point still remained whether you like it or not.

[HollywoodLeo]

Actually it wouldn't be the same at all. Because the numbers are truth, they are fact. And they are easily checked facts, that he is simply too lazy to check.

The rules of grammar are also fact.

And I dont make gramatical, errors.

I'm going to assume this was meant as a joke. I almost responded with a sarcastic retort about the grammatical errors this sentence is dripping with.

Nice touch with the random comma after misspelling "grammatical", that gave it away.

[ljshorty89]

So only teams that are World Series teams (how anyone would ****ing know in April is beyond me) can make adjustments and tweak their lineups? What a joke!! Yes you do have a reason to move him, when he's not performing and doing his job as a leadoff man which is getting on base. Jose Reyes did not start his career as a leadoff man and Rollins didn't either. Bonifacio is being thrown to the wolves here. A couples of days away from the leadoff spot isn't going to hurt a damn thing! I love how Hermida's OBP isn't good enough to leadoff but Reyes and Rollins are despite Hermida having the higher of the three.

My point is that the teams that expect to win A LOT can afford to give their future stars the finger. The Marlins are not going to win, so why not let him just get accustomed to the spot he's going to be hitting in instead of having him adjust to the 8 hole, then RE ADJUST to leadoff?

Reyes was a leadoff hitter within 1 month of being in the majors, and he learned on the job. I don't understand what your issue is with letting the guy work on his problems in the lineup spot that he will be hitting for years to come.

I am arguing with a Braves fan and a Mets fan Of course they want Bonifacio to stay in the leadoff spot!

I don't give a shit about the Marlins. I don't think they're good enough to win shit this year, so whatever. I just don't see why you'd **** with Bonifacio.

Of course it makes ****ing sense to move a hitter around! They do it all the time and most of the time it works. Especially for a guy that hardly has any ML experience in the leadoff spot!! This is truly hilarious Renteria was moved down from second to eighth for a few games and now he has reached safely in his last ten games. Sometimes players need a wakeup call. A healthy does of breaking balls in front of the pitcher can do some good.

Hermida's OBP this season and career OBP does give him a clear advantage to give him a shot to boost the Marlins offense which has been slumping, especially during a seven game losing streak and when Bonifacio's numbers continue to decline. He is not that slow either. He is faster than Jason Kendall was when he was leading off. Do any of you actually watch the Marlins? I am guessing no from the looks of it.

I am so sorry for being off by .002 but it did not change anything that I was trying to say. You guys think that moving Bonifacio is somehow going to ruin him which could be nothing further from the truth. Having Maybin and Bonifacio at the end of a lineup is a lot better than at the beginning of a lineup. You tend to put your worst players at the end of the lineup. Somehow its been working since the beginning of baseball.

Leo never went off topic.

Renteria is a veteran who can deal with failure. You don't **** with rookies. You don't bring them up to sit on the bench, you don't use them as pinch hitters, you don't bat them 8th, you don't use them as long relievers. It messes up their development. You don't consistently use them in unfavorable positions, you just don't.

Kendall had a .390 career OBP while leading off, Hermida is at .340. Very very different. Also, Hermida is pretty slow, maybe not THAT slow, but he's not fast.

[love_that_reefer]

My point is that the teams that expect to win A LOT can afford to give their future stars the finger. The Marlins are not going to win, so why not let him just get accustomed to the spot he's going to be hitting in instead of having him adjust to the 8 hole, then RE ADJUST to leadoff?

Reyes was a leadoff hitter within 1 month of being in the majors, and he learned on the job. I don't understand what your issue is with letting the guy work on his problems in the lineup spot that he will be hitting for years to come.



I don't give a shit about the Marlins. I don't think they're good enough to win shit this year, so whatever. I just don't see why you'd **** with Bonifacio.



Renteria is a veteran who can deal with failure. You don't **** with rookies. You don't bring them up to sit on the bench, you don't use them as pinch hitters, you don't bat them 8th, you don't use them as long relievers. It messes up their development. You don't consistently use them in unfavorable positions, you just don't.

Kendall had a .390 career OBP while leading off, Hermida is at .340. Very very different. Also, Hermida is pretty slow, maybe not THAT slow, but he's not fast.

Moving Bonifacio for a few games is not giving him the finger Priceless man, it truly is! Why aren't the Marlins going to win?? Because you say so? That's a laugh riot! They have every chance to win as any other team in the East not counting the Nats does and are currently in first place. Even if they were the Nats kind of awful, its ****ing dumb to keep a guy at leadoff when he's not getting on base. Guess the Rays just should have done whatever since they weren't expected to win last year

Reyes was not a leadoff man within a month of being in the Majors. He was a #2 hitter. I don't get your problem with letting a guy hit in a different spot for a couple of games. Its not going to ruin his career to try to wake his bat up and light a fire under his ass. Makes a lot more sense than just leaving in a spot that hurts the team. Tell me how a few games is going to **** up his career or even season? Please explain that!

I've clearly explained why I would "****" with Bonifacio. To get his bat going.

You don't bat rookies 8th??? Why is that? Please explain that beauty. I am dying to here that one. You still act as if I am saying permanently keeping with Bonifacio lower in the order. Its not going to ruin any kind of development. He is still getting ML at bats. Yes you move rookies when they aren't performing. It has happened every year in baseball guaranteed! This is not something new. Good lord you guys are being dumb on this.

Hermida had a OBP around .380 when I made this post. He has average speed which isn't going to hurt anyone. Not getting on base in front of your better hitters does hurt. You are being extremely difficult and irrational thinking moving him for a few games is somehow going to ruin him. If anything it will inspire him. Happens all the time! Can't say it enough but as long as you keep trying to respond, I will keep having to repeat that fact!

[HollywoodLeo]

You don't put rookies on the bench?

So all rookies should be instantly awarded starting jobs?

Now that is rich.

[ljshorty89]

You don't put rookies on the bench?

So all rookies should be instantly awarded starting jobs?

Now that is rich.

If they're not getting consistent playing time, you don't promote them from AAA.

[HollywoodLeo]

If they're not getting consistent playing time, you don't promote them from AAA.

Even if they have nothing more to prove in AAA?

What's the point?

You think somebody's talent is going to wither away if they're not playing every day?

[bcshorts]

You think somebody's talent is going to wither away if they're not playing every day?

Well, yeah, I think we both kind of do. It completely hampers their progression and growth. If you want to do what LaRussa is doing with Rasmus, OK. But you don't have rookies (at least ones that are supposed to amount to something) sitting on the bench. They should be getting regular at-bats somewhere.

[HollywoodLeo]

Talent doesn't disappear just because you don't use the player regularly at first.

Look at Xavier Nady.

The Padres sat him on the bench for way too long (and I only say that because who they sat him behind shouldn't have been starting) and he didn't seem to have a problem playing to his talent level once he finally got a regular starting gig in Pittsburgh, and later New York.

[bcshorts]

Xavier Nady has had one very good year. I don't think that makes him all that great. I love him though, he's one of my favorite players. But at 30, I don't think he's had a very good career.

I know he was just an example, but I find it very important for players that one day are expected to get regular at-bats, to get regular at-bats while they're progressing toward the goal of being solid, everyday players. Whether those at-bats come in the majors or minors, that's dependent upon the situation.

I think everyone knows that I agree that the Marlins aren't making the playoffs this year, but the experience Bonifacio gains this season will potentially pay huge dividends next season and down the road.