What is the best statistic for accessing a hitter's worth?

[Mach]

wOBA, it's similar to OPS and OPS+, but properly values that getting on base (and not making an out) is far more valuable than the type of hit. It does take into account slugging, but it realizes a 300/500 hitter is less valuable than a 400/400 hitter whereas OPS does not.

[Kingdom]

Omg you actually posted!

[Mach]

Yeah, but it was just nerdy stuff. I can do that.

[Kingdom]

Do it more often.

[HollywoodLeo]

A slow ass catcher can get a good OBP due to walks but does it matter if they can;t advance the extra base when needed or are an easy force out.

if they cant get the extra base their SLG will be lower, therefore lower OPS.

[love_that_reefer]

if they cant get the extra base their SLG will be lower, therefore lower OPS.

I was referring to when they were already on base so it has nothing to do with OPS or SLG. I love you bumping these old threads

[HollywoodLeo]

If they can't advance on the base paths that's more the fault of the people batting ahead of them. Although there is some value to speed that can mitigate that some and isn't factored into OPS. But I never like relying on just one stat

[zodious]

Wins above Replacement

That threads settled.

[HollywoodLeo]

I'm not a fan of WAR.

This part strikes me odd

There is no clearly established formula for WAR. Sites that provide the statistic, such as Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, and Baseball Reference, all calculate it differently;

How can you define a statistic as being the best one to rely on when nobody can even agree on how to calculate it?

It seems to me people just want to say they're attributing wins to one person with some fancy stat that nobody really knows how it's made just so they can say "look, this guy gave the team x-more wins than they would have had without him so he must be important!".

[love_that_reefer]

If they can't advance on the base paths that's more the fault of the people batting ahead of them. Although there is some value to speed that can mitigate that some and isn't factored into OPS. But I never like relying on just one stat

No it's not. If they are slow, they can't take that extra base when needed like average runners can. Bengie Molina couldn't go 1st to 3rd on a single to RF. Relying on one stat is the worst thing one can do which is why I try to put them in context.

[love_that_reefer]

Wins above Replacement

That threads settled.

I hate WAR. It's extremely flawed and as Leo pointed out, it has more than one formula. It's statistical theory but some treat it as fact.

[HollywoodLeo]

No it's not. If they are slow, they can't take that extra base when needed like average runners can. Bengie Molina couldn't go 1st to 3rd on a single to RF.

I said it's more the fault, not all the fault. Unless somebody's a base stealer he's not getting past whatever base he ended up on unless the hitters ahead of him put the bat on the ball. And even the fastest base runners/stealers are going to be relying on that more often than they are swiping the next base.

Well, maybe not Ricky Henderson. 130 SBs in 1982, 143 hits (10 HRs), so only 3 hits not accounted for in the SBs. Dear Lord.

Anyway, that kind of stuff doesn't happen these days, so yeah.

That being said...

Relying on one stat is the worst thing one can do which is why I try to put them in context.

Fully agree.

You can find flaws in any solitary statistic in what they do not account for. You're finding a good one with OPS.

I put a lot of weight on OPS but I certainly don't look at just that.

[love_that_reefer]

I said it's more the fault, not all the fault. Unless somebody's a base stealer he's not getting past whatever base he ended up on unless the hitters ahead of him put the bat on the ball. And even the fastest base runners/stealers are going to be relying on that more often than they are swiping the next base.

Yeah, I still don't think you're grasping what I'm talking about. What you quoted was me talking about slow runners who get OB via the walk and then not being able to take the extra base on a hit. Of course if there is a slow runner on base ahead of him, he can't take the extra base because it's already taken. Otherwise, a slow runner can only go station to station or be the perfect force out. Whoever is ahead of him has very little to do with what I'm talking about.

[HollywoodLeo]

"hitters ahead of him" meant hitters ahead of him in the lineup...in other words, the guy batting next that has to put the bat on the ball before the slow (or even average in most cases) runner can even attempt to take the next base. I didn't mean ahead of him on the basepaths.

A runner on 1st base with nobody else on can only take 2nd base by either stealing it, passed ball/wild pitch, or if the batter at the plate puts the ball in play.

Unless you have an avid base stealer the first one doesn't happen often, the 2nd one should not be relied upon, which leaves relying on somebody else to put the ball in play to allow you to move across the basepaths and eventually score.

I get that you were trying to highlight the value of a Juan Pierre (back when he could get on base) because he's one that would steal bases. But that was nevertheless my point.

[love_that_reefer]

That would be behind, not ahead. That explains the confusion