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Thread: wins/losses (for pitchers)= most overated stat in sports

  1. #16
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A'sDiehard
    Another stat that can be somewhat overrated is a middle reliever's era; the more important stat is how many of their inherited runners have scored.
    if ERA was calculated the way I think it should be, rather than how it is, then a middle reliever's ERA would be more telling...as would a starter's.

    I think, instead of awarding all inherited runners to the pitcher who put them on, it should be tallied as such.

    - An inherited runner on 3rd base that goes on to score gives 0.75 ERs to the relieved pitcher and 0.25 ERs to the reliever

    - An inherited runner on 2nd base that goes on to score gives 0.5 ERs to both the reliever and the relieved pitcher

    - An inherited runner on 1st base that goes on to score gives 0.25 ERs to the relieved pitcher and 0.75 ERs to the reliever.

    If ERA were calculated like that both the SPs and the relief pitcher's ERA would be more of a testiment as to how well they prevent runs IMO.

    (if it were as such, Chris Young would've picked up 1.75 ERs yesterday, vice the 3 he got tagged with)
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  2. #17
    Blow My Fuse A'sDiehard's Avatar
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    Interesting Leo although that's a lot of math. I watched that game last night and Young was pissed.

  3. #18
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A'sDiehard
    Interesting Leo although that's a lot of math. I watched that game last night and Young was pissed.
    I would be too if I pitched 6 2/3 strong innings just to watch someone come in and give up a 3 run home run, and then later get awarded the win I deserved.

    If I was given the power to change two things about baseball I'd implicate what I stated in my last post and i'd make wins and losses a judgement call based on who is determined to have contributed to the win or loss the most, not who happend to be the pitcher of record when the team takes the lead.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  4. #19
    Hall of Famer GiantsFanatic's Avatar
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    i agree, win/loss is one of the most overated stat

    baseball should just flat out get rid of it

  5. #20
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    no, they shouldn't get rid of it. The Pitcher is the main cog in the game and should get credit when he's the main contributer to the victory.

    What they should do is change the way they decide who gets it.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  6. #21
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Today Chan Ho Park pitches 9 shutout, 2 hit innings...and comes away with a no decision.

    Yet another prime example, regardless of what happens the rest of this game.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  7. #22
    Hall of Famer Halladay_is_God's Avatar
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    Scott Cassidy is most useless pitcher ever
    S3SL: Toronto Blue Jays' GM - rebuilding to division winner
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  8. #23
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halladay_is_God
    Scott Cassidy is most useless pitcher ever
    take away his blunder the other day and he's been our best relief pitcher all season.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  9. #24
    Hall of Famer 777rak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redsfan28
    That is exactly why win/loss record is irrelevant. A pitcher can go 4-10 with a 2.35 ERA, striking out a lot of batters while not giving up a lot of walks and still be considered a great pitcher that just didn't get any run support.

    Very true, I do not think the Win/Loss record is overated.

  10. #25
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777rak
    Very true, I do not think the Win/Loss record is overated.
    I'm confused in how you agree with him, but then turn and state that it's not overrated.

    I'm also shocked it took 24 replies for someone to disagree with me....or did it? I'm not even sure what you're viewpoint is on it, considering your reply.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  11. #26
    Hall of Famer 777rak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo
    I'm confused in how you agree with him, but then turn and state that it's not overrated.

    I'm also shocked it took 24 replies for someone to disagree with me....or did it? I'm not even sure what you're viewpoint is on it, considering your reply.

    Sorry about that let me explain



    I do not think it is overrated. The win/loss record, helps people know if a pitcher is good or not. Like redsfan28 said it is "irrelevant", however when a pitcher is for example 15-5 that lets people know he is really good this season. Let me know if anything did not make any sense.

  12. #27
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777rak
    Sorry about that let me explain



    I do not think it is overrated. The win/loss record, helps people know if a pitcher is good or not. Like redsfan28 said it is "irrelevant", however when a pitcher is for example 15-5 that lets people know he is really good this season. Let me know if anything did not make any sense.
    two years ago Ismael Vladez won roughly 10 games with the Padres before being traded to the Marlins. He did so with a roughly 4.5 ERA and tons of run support.

    I disagree with you that a 15-5 Win/Loss record, on its lonesome, tells us that a pitcher is good. How do we know the guy wasn't simply blessed with great run support?

    Furthermore, how do we know there aren't others who are better than him, but don't have quite as good of a record for reasons I stated in my two prime examples?

    There's so much that can go into a win or a loss that makes the stat overrated.

    Oh, and redsfan was agreeing with me when he stated it's irrelevant. In fact, he was taking it to a bit of an extreme that even I wasn't by making that claim.
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

  13. #28
    Hall of Famer 777rak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo
    two years ago Ismael Vladez won roughly 10 games with the Padres before being traded to the Marlins. He did so with a roughly 4.5 ERA and tons of run support.

    I disagree with you that a 15-5 Win/Loss record, on its lonesome, tells us that a pitcher is good. How do we know the guy wasn't simply blessed with great run support?

    Furthermore, how do we know there aren't others who are better than him, but don't have quite as good of a record for reasons I stated in my two prime examples?

    There's so much that can go into a win or a loss that makes the stat overrated.

    Oh, and redsfan was agreeing with me when he stated it's irrelevant. In fact, he was taking it to a bit of an extreme that even I wasn't by making that claim.
    I understand you better and you bring up a good point.

  14. #29
    RIP Cyan 2000 - 2017 Providence A's's Avatar
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    I look at many stats to determine if a pitcher is a "good." Certainly, from game to game or even in a season or two, wins and losses should not be relied upon to determine how well a pitcher pitches. HOWEVER, wins and losses over a much longer period of time can be indicative IMHO. I doubt there is anyone here that would disagree with the statement that a pitcher with 250 career wins was a good pitcher (just an example). Luck and run support (and other stuff like that) will even out over a career. A pitcher will not pitch long enough to get 200 wins or something if he were just lucky. They're winning for such a long time because they are good. I think that is the only time you can look at a pitcher's record.

  15. #30
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    I agree that over the long haul it becomes a bit more reliable, but it's still not the #1 indicator of a pitcher's greatness that it's made out to be.

    Case in point: Bert Blyleven
    LeagueTeamyearsRecordWild CardDivisionPennantsTitles
    MSLSan Diego Padres2034-20592,217-1,9951631
    TBLArizona Diamondbacks2005-20181,216-1,0531963
    TSSLSan Diego Padres2015-2021, 2024-20281,017-9280732
    TSSLTexas Rangers2029-2033396-4140000

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