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Thread: Guerrero gets Bonds treatment......?!?

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    Thread Killah/Angels Mod riverdunesrat's Avatar
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    Guerrero gets Bonds treatment......?!?

    The Intentional Walk controversy

    Guerrero gets Bonds treatment
    08/17/2005 1:55 AM ET
    By Barry M. Bloom

    ANAHEIM -- When the Blue Jays intentionally walked Angels star right fielder Vladimir Guerrero with runners on first and second on Monday night, manager Mike Scioscia was issued his comeuppance.
    Guerrero was afforded the Barry Bonds treatment. The Giants slugger has been the object of the strategy so many times under so many different conditions that he sometimes wiggles four fingers as he strides to the plate, his bat a useless appendage.

    Scioscia took advantage of the intentional walk in the 2002 World Series when he waved Bonds down to first seven times. The Angels won the series in seven games, so Scioscia must have done something right.

    From a team standpoint, it was the right way to employ a strategy that is as old as the mythical Abner Doubleday. But from a promotional standpoint, it is the wrong way to sell baseball, and the rule needs to be changed.

    "You can double-team a wide receiver in football," said Scioscia on Tuesday night during a lively discussion before the Angels dropped a 4-3 decision to the Blue Jays at Angel Stadium. "Do you want to change that, too?"

    In no other sport can the opposing coach take the ball or stick out of a superstar's hand when the game is on the line. You can't nullify Brett Hull unless his own coach pulls him off the ice. Sure, you can foul Shaquille O'Neal and send him to the line forever. But you couldn't do that with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar because he hit a higher percentage of his free throws.

    And if you double-teamed Jerry Rice, there was always a John Taylor or Terrell Owens lining up on the other side of the field. Plus, a guy as good as Rice could beat the double team.

    No one can beat the intentional walk.

    Three times Scioscia did it to Bonds in Game 4 of the 2002 World Series, forcing Benito Santiago to clear the bases. Twice the catcher grounded into a double play before hitting a single to drive in what proved to be the winner in a one-run game.

    Fans don't pay to see guys like Santiago fail in two out of three clutch situations. They spend big money now and flip the television channel to see the Barrys and Vladies of the world do what they are paid millions to do -- hit the ball hard and win games.

    For example, when Blue Jays manager John Gibbons opted to walk Guerrero with Chone Figgins on second, Darin Erstad on first and two outs, it was Bengie Molina who flied out with the bases loaded to end the inning. Nearly 40,000 people were deprived the chance of witnessing Guerrero add to his 26 homers and 88 runs batted in. Instead, they jeered lustily at the move.

    "Nothing against Bengie Molina," Gibbons said. "But I might not do that if [the injured] Garret Anderson was in the game."

    He should at least be restricted in that ability.

    I'm no advocate of completely eliminating the intentional pass. But make it illegal when first base is occupied or the bases are empty. Pitch around the hitter, if you must. But at least pitch to him.

    "We could roll the ball up to the plate four times," Scioscia said.

    With runners on first and second? Highly doubtful.

    "We could bounce four pitches up to the plate," he enjoined.

    With runners on first and third? Probably not.

    "I just don't know how you would enforce it," Scioscia added. "You can't demand that a pitcher throw strikes to the guy."

    But you can demand that the pitcher throw the ball in some proximity to the plate and warn him if he doesn't. Even if a guy pitches around a hitter, it's not a precise science. Make a mistake, and the star player creates havoc. Keep the ball away, and he walks anyway. But there is pathos and drama to the at-bat. Not just a straight gimme.

    Scioscia, though certainly not advocating a rule change, said giving a batter two bases for an intentional walk might make a manager think twice before doing it. Bruce Bochy, whose Padres walk Bonds less than some other National League teams, suggested being allowed to do it to a single batter only once a game.

    "If you use it up early, then you have to pitch to him," Bochy said.

    I know this all sounds outlandish to traditionalists, but there is some gain in change, as the designated hitter, the three-tiered playoff system and Wild Cards berths have proven to naysayers during the past 30-odd years.

    Say what you want about the other sports leagues, but when things tilt too far in one direction, the rules are changed. New defenses in the NBA. New bump-and-run rules in the NFL. New offensive adaptations in the NHL. Even the lords of Major League Baseball lowered the height of the mound in 1968 when it was deemed that pitching had become too dominant.

    The Bonds treatment has rendered the current use of the intentional walk arcane. Since Scioscia walked Bonds intentionally seven times in the World Series, he has been given first base intentionally 181 times, and that's without him playing a single inning this season because of multiple knee surgeries.

    It's really a failed strategy because Bonds scores almost 35 percent of time he is on base and the Giants win far more games when he walks.

    They haven't really even started on the .326-hitting Guerrero yet. He's walked intentionally only 12 times this season, but once recently with two outs and nobody on base.

    So the beat goes on. When Bonds returns, intentional free passes will undoubtedly escalate. After all, Barry is the author of his own treatment and Scioscia is one of its chief advocates.

    This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.



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  2. #2
    Thread Killah/Angels Mod riverdunesrat's Avatar
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    Personally, I cannot even believe that some nimrod would even suggest that the intentional walk rule be altered. It's a part of the game and has been since Hector was a pup. Once again, the Bonds gets attention and he isn't even playing right now !!!! Puhleeze. Yeah, let's change a rule because of one guy that it was presumably misused against. Interesting. *&%$!@~ media.
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    RIP Cyan 2000 - 2017 Providence A's's Avatar
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    if you're going to take the intentional walk out, then you have to take the walk out because what's stopping someone from using the "unintentional" intentional walk...you know, you walk someone on purpose without using the actual intentional walk method of the catcher standing to the side and such

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    Future PGA Tour Golfer DirtyKash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Providence A's
    if you're going to take the intentional walk out, then you have to take the walk out because what's stopping someone from using the "unintentional" intentional walk...you know, you walk someone on purpose without using the actual intentional walk method of the catcher standing to the side and such

    Or better yet, the intentional unintentional intentional walk ... always a great strategy.

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    Hall of Famer awefullspellare's Avatar
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    Yea I hate people complaining about it. It's a strategy that can and should be used when effective. If you don't want them to pass over your one good player, get another one!
    I aim to try
    "Nothing is what rocks dream of."-Aristotle

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    Hero ball. Kingdom's Avatar
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    Wait, Vlad didn't swing? First time ever.
    Marshall: MILSWANCAs?
    Ted
    : Wait, I can get this. Mothers I'd like to sleep with and never call again.
    Barney: Circle gets the square!

    The 2074 MSL NL Gold Glove Recipient at Third Base.

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    Thread Killah/Angels Mod riverdunesrat's Avatar
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    Vladdy gets two intentional walks last night and one tonight.....
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  8. #8
    When there's no one behind an elite hitter, why not walk him. I honestly have my doubts, that in the long run, IBBing a batter every time to get to Average Joe behind him is a good strategy, but at the right time it can be. There's no way to prevent it. The pitcher can simply throw a ball in attempt for a catcher pickoff four times. There's so many possibilities, and while Vlad is getting that treatment, it really makes me wonder why you hit Molina behind Guerrero when you have guys in the lineup like even Steve Finley.
    http://strike3forums.com/forums/phot...pelbon2006.jpg


    Then out of fairness to the others you will be Slagathor.

  9. #9
    RIP Cyan 2000 - 2017 Providence A's's Avatar
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    he's only got 15 IBB (he had 13 going into last night I believe), so it's not even close to what Bonds was getting.

  10. #10
    Hero ball. Kingdom's Avatar
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    If they keep this up, Vlad will buy an extra long bat so he can swing at the intentional balls.
    Marshall: MILSWANCAs?
    Ted
    : Wait, I can get this. Mothers I'd like to sleep with and never call again.
    Barney: Circle gets the square!

    The 2074 MSL NL Gold Glove Recipient at Third Base.

  11. #11
    Thread Killah/Angels Mod riverdunesrat's Avatar
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    LOL, yeah and with his strike zone he'd probably still smack it around.
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  12. #12
    RIP Cyan 2000 - 2017 Providence A's's Avatar
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    he'd probably hurt his back again

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