Cards close to trading for Willis?

[CincyRedsFan30]

So our respective amounts of evidence are about equal, then.

Works for me.

No, actually I have more evidence based on the definition of clutch. Perhaps some don't understand it so I will post it again:


"4. crucial moment: a crucial moment in a critical situation"

They have not done well in those crucial, critical playoff situations. Am I right or am I right or am I right? Right, right, right.

[McKain]

unlucky
3. Not producing the desired outcome; disappointing.

As I was saying. The same amount of evidence.

[CincyRedsFan30]

I did not mean "made up" in the sense that there is no definition for it or that it can't be found in Webster's dictionary.

So, perhaps I used the wrong term, but the fact remains that it's still a word people like to use when they want to call a player good who isn't or a player bad who isn't. (same can be said for teams.)

The A's have had good teams under Billy Beane year in and year out whether you like it or not.

But some players don't perform well in those crucial situations. Some do. If the OPS drops well below norms in a playoff situation for example, that is non-clutch to me. On the flip side, the player who rises above those norms in that particular playoff series has demonstrated a clutch performance.

And the A's have been good. They just haven't been clutch, IMO.

[HollywoodLeo]

Sure the Cards have choked in the playoffs too. They have just been less non-clutch than the A's. I also have more faith in their chances of winning a World Series in coming years.

The Marlins are an extremely clutch team. They have to be the model of being clutch in recent years and some of that goes to the GM, some to the owner and some to Jack McKean, IMO.

how are the Marlins the "most clutch"?

aside from their 2 World Series years (the first of which came off an almost Yankee-ish spending spree which was followed by a huge firesale) they haven't really done crap in the last decade.

(I do think, however, that they're making out like bandits after the trades they made this past offseason.)

[HollywoodLeo]

But some players don't perform well in those crucial situations. Some do. If the OPS drops well below norms in a playoff situation for example, that is non-clutch to me. On the flip side, the player who rises above those norms in that particular playoff series has demonstrated a clutch performance.

And the A's have been good. They just haven't been clutch, IMO.

but the thing is they just haven't won that 5th game yet, and they've all been close. To me that just means they came out with the short end of the stick in the final game.

I'd agree with your arguments had they been easily washed aside in the playoffs.

But we're getting to the point of repeating ourselves now, so I'm probably done.

[CincyRedsFan30]

unlucky
3. Not producing the desired outcome; disappointing.

As I was saying. The same amount of evidence.

Isn't not producing the desired outcome non-clutch?

I think you can use "unlucky" in an isolated situation but when something becomes repeatable several times in the same sitautions, you have to elevate the discourse to one that involves a "non-clutch" discussion.

[Providence A's]

But some players don't perform well in those crucial situations. Some do. If the OPS drops well below norms in a playoff situation for example, that is non-clutch to me. On the flip side, the player who rises above those norms in that particular playoff series has demonstrated a clutch performance.

And the A's have been good. They just haven't been clutch, IMO.

the playoffs are a small sample size...you can't compare an OPS based on > 500 ABs to an OPS based on 20 or so ABs

[CincyRedsFan30]

how are the Marlins the "most clutch"?

aside from their 2 World Series years (the first of which came off an almost Yankee-ish spending spree which was followed by a huge firesale) they haven't really done crap in the last decade.

(I do think, however, that they're making out like bandits after the trades they made this past offseason.)

Because they have won more World Championships in recent years than other teams.

[McKain]

Not producing the desired outcome can be either non-clutch, or unlucky, or some other term I am sure we're forgetting. That's why there are two sides to the argument, and we are on either side of them.

Just like "being non-clutch," "being unlucky" can last for long periods of time. That's what causes the dispute we're in right now.

[CincyRedsFan30]

the playoffs are a small sample size...you can't compare an OPS based on > 500 ABs to an OPS based on 20 or so ABs

Unless you buy into the idea that some players don't do well in crucial playoff situations and likewise others do well in those situations.

I do.

It's my opinion and nothing proves that they are either clutch or non-clutch, but it is my opinion that certain players are very clutch and non-clutch and that when a team repetitively doesn't do well in important playoff situations that it is more than just a coincidence. Nothing is going to change my thoughts on that matter.

You can disagree, but there is nothing to disprove what I say anymore than me being able to disprove what you say.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Not producing the desired outcome can be either non-clutch, or unlucky, or some other term I am sure we're forgetting. That's why there are two sides to the argument, and we are on either side of them.

Just like "being non-clutch," "being unlucky" can last for long periods of time. That's what causes the dispute we're in right now.

See my prior post. I agree, but I will continue to refer to it as non-clutch until something shows me otherwise. That's the way I view the matter.

[HollywoodLeo]

Because they have won more World Championships in recent years than other teams.

I don't normally use this word...in fact I generally tend to respond that it "doesn't exist in my dictionary" when others throw it out there, but in the case of the 1997 Marlins, in terms of gauging the GM and his ability to put together a team, the 1997 Marlins were a fluke.

(Please take special note to the fact that i'm refering to the GMing ability there and not the play of the team.)

[Providence A's]

actually, small sample size disproves both your arguments that player X will always deliver because he has an OPS of 1.000 in 20 playoff ABs and player Y will always suck because he has an OPS of .333 in 20 playoff ABs. Another 20 playoff ABs and those numbers could be drastically different. My argument is based on numbers there...your argument is based on a personal belief. I haven't brought any personal beliefs into my argument...this is pure statistics here for me.

[McKain]

See my prior post. I agree, but I will continue to refer to it as non-clutch until something shows me otherwise. That's the way I view the matter.

That's pretty much my view, except replace "non-clutch" with "unlucky."

Unfortunately there's no way that clutch will ever be proven or disproven in baseball so this argument will never be resolved. Sucks.

[CincyRedsFan30]

actually, small sample size disproves both your arguments that player X will always deliver because he has an OPS of 1.000 in 20 playoff ABs and player Y will always suck because he has an OPS of .333 in 20 playoff ABs. Another 20 playoff ABs and those numbers could be drastically different. My argument is based on numbers there...your argument is based on a personal belief. I haven't brought any personal beliefs into my argument...this is pure statistics here for me.

I didn't say will always produce. I think it can vary year to year. Some players are more clutch than others depending on the season. Some are more consistently good in key situations every year.

For me it's different than a general "small sample size" of 20 regular season AB because there are enough games then to make a player's numbers regress or progress. In the playoffs, the ante is upped and some players simply seem to perform better when the pressure is on. There is no pressure of 20 isolated AB during the regular season. I think the pressure of the playoffs is an important factor in performance. I think it can be almost as important as talent level in many situations.