How great was John Hart in Cleveland?

[Steak]

I really want to know.

Apparently, Taylor is not happy with him even though I think he has been fantastic. He has a five-year plan in Texas and it's working like a charm. Hart was fantatic with the Indians and there is no reason to think it will be the same in Texas.

[realmofotalk]

Among Hart's disastrous trades: Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon, Richie Sexson for Bob Wickman, and Sean Casey for Dave Burba. The John Rocker trade didn't work out either.

[Steak]

You gotta forgive Hart though. He was going for a championship at the time.

[Jennifer]

Among Hart's disastrous trades: Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon, Richie Sexson for Bob Wickman, and Sean Casey for Dave Burba. The John Rocker trade didn't work out either.

I'm not necessarily the world's biggest John Hart fan. Much of the foundation laid for the team's winning was by Hank Peters. Good scouting and a strong farm system gave the team a lot of talent to put on the field and talent to trade. That the team also had one of the largest payrolls after the opening of the Jake did not hurt.

As for the trades you list I think you have to evaluate them based on how right Hart was about what he was getting versus what he was giving up.

Brian Giles for Ricardo Rincon. Little doubt about his talent but where were you going to play him? He was the fourth outfielder and could play, I believe, a little backup First Base. Eventually, perhaps 2002 he would have become a regular. In trading for Rincon Hart was trading for a Pitcher who could come into a game late and get out one or two of the opposing team's better left handed hitters. He was poor in 1999 but in 2000 and 2001 he did exactly what Hart wanted and was a key factor in the Tribe winning the division in 2001.

Sean Casey for Dave Burba, please. This was a trade where both teams got exactly what they wanted. Casey was a player that few doubted would be very good. He had no shot at beating out Thome at First and as good as his career has been I don't think (injuries aside) there is a single year that most people would have preferred Casey over Thome. With Burba the Tribe always in need of Starting Pitching got a proven winner that in 1998 went 15-10, 1999 went 15-9 and 2000 was 16-6. In 98 & 99 he was an important factor in winning the division and he did his part in 2000 even though the Tribe failed to win the division.

Richie Sexson for Bob Wickman (actually Sexson, Rigdon, Davis and Scutaro for Wickman, Woodard and Bere). Sexson was potentially a good player but again no place to play him (the other three were highly expendable). Wickman was the key. The Tribe desperately needed a closer. In 2001 he appeared in 70 games and got 32 saves helping the Tribe win the division. Since then he has been an effective closer. But the Tribe always in need of Starting Pitchers also got two potential Starters in the bargain. While Bere and Woodard both won some important games for the Tribe they were essentially busts.

Steve Karsay and Steve Reed for John Rocker. Here Hart was gambling that a change in environment would return Rocker to where he had been a premier closer. Big mistake. However, the Tribe really did not give up much. Karsay was a free agent at the end of the year and was very disgruntled because he wanted to be a Starter. The Tribe viewed their chances of re-signing him as zilch. Steve Reed has proven to be a half decent Reliever. Since he was traded in 2001 with the Tribe he has gone to Atlanta, San Diego, New York (Mets), Colorado and this year he is in Baltimore. This is six different teams since 2001.

Ultimately, though, in evaluating these trades there is another consideration that must be taken into account. Cleveland is a small to middle market team back in the 90s it was able to continue to thrive because it was able to fill the Jake every night and the only way to continue its success was to continue to sellout the Jake every night. This necessitated a short term strategy of winning now and worrying about the future later. In evaluating Hart one must keep this in mind.

[Taylor]

Don't ask Cleveland fans - they're going to say nice things about Hart because they hope he stays in Texas and continues to hand them sluggers for crappy catchers.

BTW - What was Hart's 5 year plan?? Jack the payroll up $20 million, screw up the draft & farm then fire the minor league director after he builds it back up???? Because that's all I've seen him do....

[realmofotalk]

Lefty relievers are a dime-a-dozen and most of the time are crapshoots. While Rincon turned out to be a good investment, Hart could've acquired a lefty without having to trade Giles.

Dave Burba was a decent starter but was also a huge benefactor of the Tribe scoring machine. Burba and Nagy could give up four runs or five runs in each game and still have 16 or 17 wins.

Richie Sexson was groomed to be Thome's successor at 1b. While you got Wickman, Hart clearly overpaid and the trade created a big hole when Thome left as a free agent. Shapiro deserves credit for pulling off a steal for Travis Hafner and ripping off his old boss at the same time.

Reed and Karsay for Rocker didn't make sense because Hart gave up 2 relievers for 1, and the Tribe tried Rocker as their closer even though the job was Wickman's.

[Jennifer]

Lefty relievers are a dime-a-dozen and most of the time are crapshoots. While Rincon turned out to be a good investment, Hart could've acquired a lefty without having to trade Giles.

Dave Burba was a decent starter but was also a huge benefactor of the Tribe scoring machine. Burba and Nagy could give up four runs or five runs in each game and still have 16 or 17 wins.

Richie Sexson was groomed to be Thome's successor at 1b. While you got Wickman, Hart clearly overpaid and the trade created a big hole when Thome left as a free agent. Shapiro deserves credit for pulling off a steal for Travis Hafner and ripping off his old boss at the same time.

Reed and Karsay for Rocker didn't make sense because Hart gave up 2 relievers for 1, and the Tribe tried Rocker as their closer even though the job was Wickman's.

Let's see. Sexson was traded during the 2000 season and Thome left after the 2002 season which means according to you that John Hart should have assumed Thome would not be re-signed and Sexson should have been relegated to part time duty or the minors for 2 1/2 seasons and then given the opportunity to try to proof he was a starter at the age of 29. And after that first season, 2003, I believe he would have been a free agent. As for Hart overpaying I'd be curious about your reasoning. First Hart traded players that had little or no present value to the team in order to obtain players that would immediately help the Tribe try to win the division in 2000. Second the trade was an in season trade which means that Hart had fewer options regarding who was available. This scaracity increased prices for Hart. Third, in making your assertion do you know whether there were other teams bidding for Wickman and/or the other pitchers?

Yes, Burba was little more than a decent starter but one that filled a critical need and who helped the Tribe win Division titles. Casey was traded because he had very little current value. Whenever, I hear anyone in the Cleveland or Cincinnati media talk or write about the trade they say it was one of those rare trades where both teams benefitted greatly.

The Ricon trade is not worth arguing over. We will call it a bad trade.

The Rocker trade was neither a good nor bad deal. If Rocker had returned to form it would have been a great deal (I was unhappy with the trade at the time because I didn't want him on the team no matter how good he was). So, yes in hindsight getting Rocker was a bad idea. And the Tribe lost Karsay for 1/2 of a season and got rid of a disgruntled pitcher. There was also Reed but if lefty relievers are a "dime-a-dozen" righty relievers are about two cents-a-dozen.

Lastly in arguing that Hart overpayed you seem to ignore the tremendous pressure on Hart to win every year. There is little doubt that to some extent he knew he was trading the future for the present. But once the attendance revenue stream started to dwindle Hart knew there would be major payroll cuts. Why do you think he left Cleveland when he did? He left because he saw the payroll cuts coming.

Even if you continue to maintain that all four trades were bad ones it seems to me that at best you have shown Hart overpaid. You have hardly made the case that any of them were "disastrous" as you originally claimed.

[realmofotalk]

Combined, Reed and Karsay are more valuable to the pen than Rocker. Rocker's also a clubhouse distraction, to put it lightly.

Sexson had 31 homers and 116 RBIs in '99. I think he had some present value to the Tribe. He was supposed to be the DH and then take over full-time at 1b. If Hart knew there would be payroll cuts and rebuilding would happen soon, he shouldn't have mortgaged a cornerstone slugger for a short-term fix at closer. No, I did not know other teams were vying for Wickman, Woodard, and Bere. But Dave Taylor of Milwaukee probably needed new pants when Hart offered him Sexson. It does speak of Hart's inability to be shrewd with trades that become disastrous, i.e. the Travis Hafner trade.

[Steak]

If John Hart is that bad, how come he hires so many good assistants over the years. He must be doing something right in Texas. You can't win by accident. Tommorow at work, I will do some research on Hart.

[Jennifer]

If John Hart is that bad, how come he hires so many good assistants over the years. He must be doing something right in Texas. You can't win by accident. Tommorow at work, I will do some research on Hart.

Steak to assist you in your research here is a link.

Hart versus Shapiro

You will see that this link is at odds with some of the things I have said but it is factually fairly comprehensive regarding Hart's full tenure in Cleveland and part of his Texas tenure.

Earlier in the thread trades were discussed that I described essentially as trading the future for the present. After Jacobs took over there was the trading for the future period. During this period Hart made the following trades:

1989 - Joe Carter for Sandy Alomar, Carlos Baerga and Chris James.

1991 - Willie Blair and Eddie Taubensee for Kenny Lofton

1993 - Felix Fermin and Reggie Jackson for Omar Vizquel.

Alomar, Baerga, Lofton and Vizquel all made important contributions to the Tribe's championship runs. Each of them made the AL All-Star Team at least once. Vizquel is a potential Hall of Famer.

Most people knowledgeable about baseball when talking about defense emphasize strongly the need for good defense up the middle. Alomar, Vizquel and Lofton each won at least one Gold Glove.

In the link I supplied you will see the trades made by Hart once the Tribe was in its championship phase. Here the results were so-so.

[Steak]

Thanks, Jennifer.

Read it and weep, Taylor.