FA's to be

[Mario-Rijo]

Thought I would post this so that we can start looking ahead a bit. If a big FA is one's hope to help turn this thing around, ya might wanna start looking elsewhere. There are some desirable guys but few are the good, and plenty are the bad or not helpful.

Guys worth chasing but will be in green. (These may also be quite expensive)
Guys who are worthless for the Reds will be in red.
Guys who may be worth a look in blue. (For various reasons)


FA's '08

[QUOTE]2008 MLB Free Agents
Presenting...your 2008 free agent class.

Of course, some of these players will be signed or retired before reaching free agency. I've changed the post to categorize them by position; the player's 2008 age is in parentheses. If I saw someone as a possibility at more than one position I put them at both. I'll keep this post updated throughout the season and make it a permanent sidebar link.

Updated 11-19-07

Catchers
Jorge Posada (36) *Re-Signed w/ NYY To a 4 yr 52 million $ deal*
Ivan Rodriguez (36) - $13MM club option for '08 *Option p/u*
Paul Lo Duca (36)
Michael Barrett (31)
Jason Kendall (34)
Ramon Castro (32) *Re-signed w/ NYM 2 yr contract*
Yorvit Torrealba (29)
Rod Barajas (32)

First basemen (My note: don't know why Dunn is listed here)
Adam Dunn (28) - $13MM club option for '08; becomes free agent after season if traded - *Option picked up*


Second basemen
Jeff Kent (40) - $9MM club option vests with 550 PAs this year *Option kicked in 551 PA's*
Marcus Giles (30) - $4MM club option for '08 *Outright released*
Luis Castillo (32) - Re-signed w/ Mets to a 4 yr 25 million $ deal
Tadahito Iguchi (33)
Kaz Matsui (32)


Shortstops
Omar Vizquel (41) *Re-signed w/ SFG to a 1 yr 5.5 Million $ deal*
David Eckstein (33)
Juan Uribe (29) - $5MM club option for '08 *Option p/u*
Cesar Izturis (28) - $5.45MM club option for '08 *Option declined*


Third basemen
Alex Rodriguez (32) - 10 yr 275 mill perhaps?
Mike Lowell (34) *Re-signed w/ Boston to a 3 yr 37.5 million $ deal*
Mike Lamb (32)
Pedro Feliz (33)


Left fielders
Eric Byrnes (32) *Re-signed by Zona for 3yrs 30 Million*.
[/B]Adam Dunn (28) - *Option p/u*
Geoff Jenkins (33) - $9MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Luis Gonzalez (40)
Brad Wilkerson (31)


Center fielders
Andruw Jones (31)
Torii Hunter (32) *Signed w/ LAA, 5 yrs 90 Mill*
Corey Patterson (28)
Milton Bradley (30)
Aaron Rowand (30)
Mike Cameron (35)
Kenny Lofton (41)


Right fielders
Jermaine Dye (34) *Re-signed by WSox for 2 yrs 22 Mill; Mutual option for 2010
Kosuke Fukudome (31)
Bobby Abreu (34) - $16MM club option for '08 *Option picked up*
Milton Bradley (30)
Trot Nixon (34)
Jose Guillen (32) - $9MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Shawn Green (35) - $10MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Eric Hinske (30)

DHs
Shea Hillenbrand (32)
Mike Piazza (39)
Barry Bonds (43) *Indicted*
Mike Sweeney (34)
Sammy Sosa (39)


Starting pitchers
Carlos Zambrano (27) *Re-signed by Cubs for 5 yrs 90 million (reportedly 90, who really knows the exact #) with a vesting option for 2012
Curt Schilling (41) Re-signed w/ Boston to a 1 yr deal
Jason Jennings (29) (He's also worth a look but again not a very long one)
Koji Uehara (33) (A solid option but not a likely one for Cincy)
Hiroki Kuroda (32) (Another good option and still yet another unlikely one)
Freddy Garcia (32)
Kenny Rogers (43)
Jon Lieber (38)
Bartolo Colon (35)
Joe Kennedy (29)
Tomo Ohka (32)
John Thomson (34)
Kip Wells (31)
Wade Miller (31)
Livan Hernandez (33)*
Randy Wolf (31) - $9MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Paul Byrd (37) - $7.5 MM club option for '08 *Option p/u*
Jeff Weaver (31)
Tom Glavine (42) - Signed with Atl to a 1 yr 8 million $ deal
Kris Benson (33) - $7.5MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Jaret Wright (32)
David Wells (45)
Eric Milton (32)
Kyle Lohse (29)
Matt Clement (33)
Rodrigo Lopez (32)
Josh Fogg (31)
Byung-Hyun Kim (29)
Odalis Perez (31) - $9MM club option for '08 *Option declined*
Brett Tomko (35) - $4.5MM mutual option for '08 *Option declined*


Closers
Mariano Rivera (38) Re-signed w/ NYY to a 3 yr 45 million $ deal
Jason Isringhausen (35) - $8MM club option for '08 *Option p/u*
Bob Wickman (39)
Francisco Cordero (33) He's a RED 4 yrs for 46 Million w/ a 5th yr Team Option at 11 million
Armando Benitez (35)
Eric Gagne (32)
Todd Jones (40) *Re-signed w/ Det to a 1 yr 7 Million $ deal*

Middle relievers
Scott Linebrink (31)
Jorge Julio (29)
Kerry Wood (31) *Re-Signed by Cubs to a 1 yr 4 mill deal*
Yasuhiko Yabuta (34)
David Riske (31) (My pick!)
Octavio Dotel (34)
Jeremy Affeldt (28) (could do worse)

There are also some other possible FA's to be from Japan, but the 2 listed are the most likely prominent players to be available. After some more in depth searching it seems Koji Uehara may have had a somewhat recent ('06) arm injury which I will look into further.

[Mario-Rijo]

The in house answers, not necc all answers. I tried to list them in order of preference of who I would start there. This is assuming we went real cheap and didn't add FA's.

In house options Catcher
David Ross
Javier Valentin
No other viable in the organization options remain IMHO

In house options 1B
Joey Votto
Scott Hatteberg

In house options 2B
Brandon Phillips (which is the only option necc.)
Jeff Keppinger

In house options SS
Alex Gonzales
Pedro Lopez (needs to refine his offense, assuming he get's over "the hit" to the face)
Paul Janish (far away yet overall, but he does have the defense right now)

In house options 3B
Edwin Elpidio Encarnacion (needs to continue refining his game)
Jeff Keppinger (more a backup IF and solid bat off the bench for '08)
I see no other solid alternatives in the near future in house

In house options LF
Adam Dunn
Ken Griffey Jr (I don't care what he wants, he's a LF at best right now)
Under the right circumstances this is a long list of possible LF's, so I am just listing the most obvious.
Joey Votto (I don't know how well I like this move, not likely a very wise move but still a possibility according to some)

In house options CF
Josh Hamilton
Norris Hopper
Ryan Freel

In house options RF
Jay Bruce
Josh Hamilton
Ken Griffey Jr (Not my favorite option in RF for '08, assuming he is even still here)

In house options SP
Aaron Harang
Bronson Arroyo
Homer Bailey
Johnny Cueto (A bit of a sleeper, but has the talent)
Matt Belisle (Dropping fast, but has decent stuff and exp.)
Bobby Livingston (Love his makeup and his Lefthandedness)
Elizardo Ramirez (With a good defense he could be a good #5)
Matt Maloney (The sleeper, but with skills)
Carlos Fisher (A long shot here, but might be solid)

In house options CP
David Weathers
Eddie Guardado (Not anything more than a cheap/no other alternative option)
And Who Knows, probably no one!

In house options MRP
David Weathers (If we could get a closer)
Jared Burton (Looking better all the time)
Bill Bray (Still high on him)
Brad Salmon (Has the stuff needs better command)
Marcus McBeth (Needs to work on the stuff a bit)
John Coutlangus (needs to tighten up those pitches and command)
Mike Gosling (Slipping, but can get out the LH's still)
Tyler Pelland (A nice solid possibility)
Pedro Viola (Major Sleeper for '08, probably mid-season)
Josh Roenicke (Likewise, another Major sleeper)
Carlos Guevara (The F.O. isn't that intrigued with him it seems)
Brock Till (not sure, haven't looked deep enough here but currently in AAA pen)
Gary Majewski (I fear he is done, but what do we have to lose to see him once more)
Eddie Guardado (Not likely, unless we really go cheap)
Todd Coffey (He really needs to go to A-Ball and get his off speed stuff and confidence back)
Mike Stanton (He's Done)

[Mario-Rijo]

Now what are the needs of this team? Today Position Players on the IF.
Needs in Red!
Don't Need in Green!

Catcher: I like Ross, he needs to work on his swing in the offseason. I see 1 clear flaw he needs to confront. When he goes into his swing he rocks his hands back and then comes forward to the ball. Why all that wasted motion which often makes him late? He needs to adjust his hands and move them back to the hitting position as his starting position. This should speed up his bat and simultaneously allow him more time to see that outside slider/slurve type pitch he is always swinging at. Which should result in a major jump in BA/OBP/Slg/OPS etc.

Back-Up Catcher: I also like Javy and the fact he is a potent LH bat at a position where it's gravy. But he has 3 major flaws defensively. A. He calls a bad game, B. He has only a decent arm. And C. He does a less than stellar job of blocking balls in the dirt. That's not acceptable and there is too much there to work on for my taste.

1B: Votto: It's his time and he is not a guy who will need to platoon. He will struggle and if it happens like I think he won't be there long, but he deserves the opportunity to prove it.

Back-up 1B: Hatteberg/Keppinger If Votto fails these 2 platoon. If Votto holds his own Hatteberg and Keppinger are outstanding bats off the bench and good for a start a week. Keppinger obviously gives you a guy who can sub nearly anyone in the IF.

2B: BP is an elite 2B now and keeps us from discussing the situation.

Back-Up 2B: Jeff Keppinger again a good solid starter every 2 weeks here perhaps.

SS: Alex Gonzales: Good solid starter here.

Back-Up SS: Pedro Lopez: I like him as long as he's o.k. from the accident and his offense continues to improve. He could replace Gonzo sooner than Gonzo would like. Defensively he is already as good if not better than AG. Perhaps could also be a solid option @ 2B if need be at times.

3B: EEE: He needs at least another yr to disprove his worth, his defense has improved and his offense although down isn't gone.

Back-Up 3B: Jeff Keppinger again can't go wrong here.

So as far as the IF goes only back-up catcher is a position of need IMHO. Obviously I prefer a LH bat and if Javy could learn to call a better game and cut down a few more runners and stay in front of the ball a little more i'd keep him. Just not convinced he can fix all that in 1 offseason.

After looking at possible FA backup catchers there is little to be desired. Maybe a trade or perhaps we are stuck with Javy.

Coming Soon the OF!

[redsrbetter]

Awesome stuff here Rijo. Here is my problem with the FO though. They say they have a plan but have not made a claim to whether that plan is to adjust for the future and go young or adjust for next season and spend on free agents.

I truly do not put it past them to do neither. Krivsky has already screwed up the chance of us going young. So maybe he does see a team being built in 2008. The only way I can figure he would see something like that is if he knows the money is there to get pitching. As this thread points out, our position players are pretty intact. But we need pitching in the worst way. Yes, we have decentt in house options, but those should only be used in case of injury.

Your list of SP are outlined perfectly. There are only two that should intrigue us. But I can guarantee neither of them will want to play for a team with this kind of record. The best we could get SP wise in free agency would be a Paul Byrd or Randy Wolf. That is disgusting, but the truth.

Relief pitching may not be so hard and I feel that is what Krivsky will be going after the most. But there aren't many available, so he has to get on the wagon real fast on a few of them.

Great stuff Rijo. I just wish I didn't have so much doubt in Krivsky.

[Mario-Rijo]

I know you have doubts, anyone would be insane not to have some given the circumstances. However let me say this, I believe he has always had a plan. The reason I know is because I listened extremely carefully to every word Krivsky has ever said and while I may have forgotten most of the words, I have never lost sight of the sentiment behind those words.

That and watching ones actions instead of the words by themselves should easily draw out the plan for anyone. The problem isn't that he isn't saying the right things, but moreso that people are listening for what they wanna hear and not what's clear.

They said the would be competitive, they have been. Yeah this season they haven't but they got fooled just like the rest of us by last season & the off-season. Who thought Coffey would go this bad this quick, who thought Stanton would be this horrible, etc.

If I told you before the season that Jr, Phillips & Dunn would all have better season's than last yr (by far), Hatteberg wouldn't really drop off any, Ross would struggle to make consistent contact but still be on track for 25 HR's and about 50-60 RBI, while also being in the top 3 of MLB throwing out baserunners and improving his defense overall. That Edwin although not quite as good offensively hasn't bottomed out but had improved his defense and was improving although slowely, surely. That Gonzales wouldn't be as solid defensively as his reputation suggested, but he made up for it by providing much better than anticipated offense, all while dealing with an ill infant at home.

If Harang had yet another fine season, Arroyo had some bumps in the road but still was solid overall, that Milton & Majewski wouldn't pitch for us much if at all, that Lohse would be at about a 4.5 ERA at mid-season, that Weathers, Coutlangus, and Salmon were all under a 4.00 era in the pen.

If I said Bailey debuted and although he struggled and had a minor (groin) injury but showed flashes of brilliance. That we had 2 rule 5 draft picks pan out, one a pitcher who also pitched at a under 4.00 ERA and showed a bright future and the other a stud OF who could play all 3 OF positions and although nicked up a bit here and there looked like at minimum a future All-Star.

If I added that we had a few guys who debuted and although not necc. dominant had filled in quite nicely like Livingston, Keppinger, Pedro Lopez, Hopper. Who all pitched in to replace the star of stars Juan Castro who missed half the season with TJ surgery.

What kind of season would you have envisioned?

Yeah Krivsky missed big time on a few guys and expected more out of a few others already here. But it's that close to being solidly competitive and with a very solid future in 4 top prospects who are all in AAA. Bailey, Bruce, Votto and Cueto. But people cannot see the forest for the trees, all they see is the bad. All the while good is blossoming around them, and Krivsky somehow stinks?? Go figure, all the losing has only caused mistrust of epic proportions, so much so that it blinded the fans perspective.

Yeah there is a plan, has been all along. It's not necc. the best plan someone would employ but it's likely the best plan one could hope for with what the organization has had to work with. I'm not ragging on you or anyone in particular but the fans as a whole who have dogged this F.O. who have done their job to the point where they are about to be fired, and for what?

[Mario-Rijo]

Now what are the needs of this team? Today Position Players in the OF.
Needs in Red!
Don't Need in Green!

LF: What to do with Adam Dunn? Well that my friends is the 13 Million dollar question (with performance incentives totaling another 3.5 mill ). Ideally you would like to keep a guy who is still pretty young with such good production. The key question I have is this. Where do you get the neccessary talent in the bullpen/rotation if you keep Dunn and/or Griffey? And with Hamilton and Bruce the future cornerstones in LF and RF, why is it that Dunn and Griffey are so necc.? Right now he's a Red next yr at this time he won't be IMO.

With or w/o him we will have an overall above average LF as we have Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton, Bruce and a cast of thousands.

CF: Ryan Freel is not a full time starter and his flaws offensively are rising to the top. He is not a great basestealer/baserunner, but a guy who's speed allows him to at times steal bases. He doesn't walk very often for a "leadoff hitter", and he has trouble hitting breaking balls. Norris Hopper as much as I love his style of play has some good points and bad points. IMO he is a slightly better version of Freel. and a guy who I feel we need just not as an everyday CF. Hamilton can play a very outstanding CF but doesn't have the range to be elite out there. He does however have the skills to be elite in RF and HOF caliber in LF. So let's make use of that ability.

RF:Griffey has played an admirable RF despite his limitations. And his offense has rebounded quite nicely in part due to the move. However I have a pretty good reason to believe this is his last go round as Red. Jay Bruce is the future here IMO, so why not get it kicked off and soon like opening day '08.

Back-ups:
This really depends alot on who starts, but since we don't know let's go with what we got.

Norris Hopper - Good bench guy for speed, baserunning, ph, defense, bunting.

Ryan Freel - I think he may be an odd man out, but as long as he can play so many positions and can at times kill be a huge sparkplug both offensively and defensively and is relatively cheap keep him. But would rather have a RH bat with pop off the bench.

[Mario-Rijo]

Opening day non-pitching team. Since I think 11 is a good # of pitchers to start the season, 14 will be the position players.


Starters
C: Ross
1B: Votto
2B: Phillips
3B: Encarnacion
SS: Gonzales
LF: Byrnes (just filling this in, a guess more or less)
CF: Hamilton
RF: Bruce

Bench
C: Valentin
1B: Hatteberg
IF: Keppinger
OF: Hopper
OF: RH Bat w/ Pop- A COF/1B Type, if he could also play a little 3rd that would be great. Think a Todd Zeile type but more an OF than IF.
Ut: Freel

Pitchers to come!!! This oughta be fun!!

[NFLman2033]

I know you have doubts, anyone would be insane not to have some given the circumstances. However let me say this, I believe he has always had a plan. The reason I know is because I listened extremely carefully to every word Krivsky has ever said and while I may have forgotten most of the words, I have never lost sight of the sentiment behind those words.

That and watching ones actions instead of the words by themselves should easily draw out the plan for anyone. The problem isn't that he isn't saying the right things, but moreso that people are listening for what they wanna hear and not what's clear.

They said the would be competitive, they have been. Yeah this season they haven't but they got fooled just like the rest of us by last season & the off-season. Who thought Coffey would go this bad this quick, who thought Stanton would be this horrible, etc.

If I told you before the season that Jr, Phillips & Dunn would all have better season's than last yr (by far), Hatteberg wouldn't really drop off any, Ross would struggle to make consistent contact but still be on track for 25 HR's and about 50-60 RBI, while also being in the top 3 of MLB throwing out baserunners and improving his defense overall. That Edwin although not quite as good offensively hasn't bottomed out but had improved his defense and was improving although slowely, surely. That Gonzales wouldn't be as solid defensively as his reputation suggested, but he made up for it by providing much better than anticipated offense, all while dealing with an ill infant at home.

If Harang had yet another fine season, Arroyo had some bumps in the road but still was solid overall, that Milton & Majewski wouldn't pitch for us much if at all, that Lohse would be at about a 4.5 ERA at mid-season, that Weathers, Coutlangus, and Salmon were all under a 4.00 era in the pen.

If I said Bailey debuted and although he struggled and had a minor (groin) injury but showed flashes of brilliance. That we had 2 rule 5 draft picks pan out, one a pitcher who also pitched at a under 4.00 ERA and showed a bright future and the other a stud OF who could play all 3 OF positions and although nicked up a bit here and there looked like at minimum a future All-Star.

If I added that we had a few guys who debuted and although not necc. dominant had filled in quite nicely like Livingston, Keppinger, Pedro Lopez, Hopper. Who all pitched in to replace the star of stars Juan Castro who missed half the season with TJ surgery.

What kind of season would you have envisioned?

Yeah Krivsky missed big time on a few guys and expected more out of a few others already here. But it's that close to being solidly competitive and with a very solid future in 4 top prospects who are all in AAA. Bailey, Bruce, Votto and Cueto. But people cannot see the forest for the trees, all they see is the bad. All the while good is blossoming around them, and Krivsky somehow stinks?? Go figure, all the losing has only caused mistrust of epic proportions, so much so that it blinded the fans perspective.

Yeah there is a plan, has been all along. It's not necc. the best plan someone would employ but it's likely the best plan one could hope for with what the organization has had to work with. I'm not ragging on you or anyone in particular but the fans as a whole who have dogged this F.O. who have done their job to the point where they are about to be fired, and for what?

great post

Opening day non-pitching team. Since I think 11 is a good # of pitchers to start the season, 14 will be the position players.


Starters
C: Ross
1B: Votto
2B: Phillips
3B: Encarnacion
SS: Gonzales
LF: Byrnes (just filling this in, a guess more or less)
CF: Hamilton
RF: Bruce

Bench
C: Valentin
1B: Hatteberg
IF: Keppinger
OF: Hopper
OF: RH Bat w/ Pop- A COF/1B Type, if he could also play a little 3rd that would be great. Think a Todd Zeile type but more an OF than IF.
Ut: Freel

Pitchers to come!!! This oughta be fun!!

who is the lead off hitter.. Phillips?

[Mario-Rijo]

who is the lead off hitter.. Phillips?

Yeah I know, it's hard to find what is right here. We could look into one more player but someone would then have to go. That player would be Kenny Lofton who could platoon with Freel and Hamilton or Hopper. Kinda like this.

Vs. RHP
Hamilton LF
Lofton CF
Bruce RF

Vs. LHP
Hamilton LF
Hopper CF
Bruce RF

Or

Hopper LF
Hamilton CF
Bruce RF

I thought about this as a cheap alternative to signing a big RH bat but felt the RH bat was more necc. Or one of the trades we would make could center around a CF who can play everyday and leadoff. Either way I think Freel could be a guy on his wayout. Imagine Freel, Griffey and Dunn gone, wow that's kinda crazy, but not completely out of the realm of possibility. Or you could do this....


Hamilton CF
Phillips 2B
Byrnes LF
Bruce RF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Gonzales SS
Ross C

[NFLman2033]

Yeah I know, it's hard to find what is right here. We could look into one more player but someone would then have to go. That player would be Kenny Lofton who could platoon with Freel and Hamilton or Hopper. Kinda like this.

Vs. RHP
Hamilton LF
Lofton CF
Bruce RF

Vs. LHP
Hamilton LF
Hopper CF
Bruce RF

Or

Hopper LF
Hamilton CF
Bruce RF

I thought about this as a cheap alternative to signing a big RH bat but felt the RH bat was more necc. Or one of the trades we would make could center around a CF who can play everyday and leadoff. Either way I think Freel could be a guy on his wayout. Imagine Freel, Griffey and Dunn gone, wow that's kinda crazy, but not completely out of the realm of possibility. Or you could do this....


Hamilton CF
Phillips 2B
Byrnes LF
Bruce RF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Gonzales SS
Ross C

hmm interesting, it definately should be interesting..

my personal theory is that they seem to be content with what we have.. in other words i would almost fully expect the entire same lineup next year as this year.. with perhaps Votto making the jump.. but they will need to unload their 1B's.. and also i almost expect them to let Hatteberg go and keep Conine around to be a RH bat at 1B to go with Votto.

don't get me wrong that isn't what i want to see, but its just my feelings and lack of faith that make me say it

[redsrbetter]

I know you have doubts, anyone would be insane not to have some given the circumstances. However let me say this, I believe he has always had a plan. The reason I know is because I listened extremely carefully to every word Krivsky has ever said and while I may have forgotten most of the words, I have never lost sight of the sentiment behind those words.

That and watching ones actions instead of the words by themselves should easily draw out the plan for anyone. The problem isn't that he isn't saying the right things, but moreso that people are listening for what they wanna hear and not what's clear.

They said the would be competitive, they have been. Yeah this season they haven't but they got fooled just like the rest of us by last season & the off-season. Who thought Coffey would go this bad this quick, who thought Stanton would be this horrible, etc.

If I told you before the season that Jr, Phillips & Dunn would all have better season's than last yr (by far), Hatteberg wouldn't really drop off any, Ross would struggle to make consistent contact but still be on track for 25 HR's and about 50-60 RBI, while also being in the top 3 of MLB throwing out baserunners and improving his defense overall. That Edwin although not quite as good offensively hasn't bottomed out but had improved his defense and was improving although slowely, surely. That Gonzales wouldn't be as solid defensively as his reputation suggested, but he made up for it by providing much better than anticipated offense, all while dealing with an ill infant at home.

If Harang had yet another fine season, Arroyo had some bumps in the road but still was solid overall, that Milton & Majewski wouldn't pitch for us much if at all, that Lohse would be at about a 4.5 ERA at mid-season, that Weathers, Coutlangus, and Salmon were all under a 4.00 era in the pen.

If I said Bailey debuted and although he struggled and had a minor (groin) injury but showed flashes of brilliance. That we had 2 rule 5 draft picks pan out, one a pitcher who also pitched at a under 4.00 ERA and showed a bright future and the other a stud OF who could play all 3 OF positions and although nicked up a bit here and there looked like at minimum a future All-Star.

If I added that we had a few guys who debuted and although not necc. dominant had filled in quite nicely like Livingston, Keppinger, Pedro Lopez, Hopper. Who all pitched in to replace the star of stars Juan Castro who missed half the season with TJ surgery.

What kind of season would you have envisioned?

Yeah Krivsky missed big time on a few guys and expected more out of a few others already here. But it's that close to being solidly competitive and with a very solid future in 4 top prospects who are all in AAA. Bailey, Bruce, Votto and Cueto. But people cannot see the forest for the trees, all they see is the bad. All the while good is blossoming around them, and Krivsky somehow stinks?? Go figure, all the losing has only caused mistrust of epic proportions, so much so that it blinded the fans perspective.

Yeah there is a plan, has been all along. It's not necc. the best plan someone would employ but it's likely the best plan one could hope for with what the organization has had to work with. I'm not ragging on you or anyone in particular but the fans as a whole who have dogged this F.O. who have done their job to the point where they are about to be fired, and for what?

Before the trade deadline, I almost made a thread defending Krivsky.. You did a great job here. But I just cannot defend his not trading Conine or Hatteberg. I don't care if the offers were nill. Get rid of them.

My take on Krivsky so far:

Finding young players that other teams have given up on and finding that they are pretty talented. Phillips, Hamilton, Ross, Arroyo are all included in this and he has done a great job with this. But trading players and signing free agents are his downfall. "The trade" nominated him for worst move this organization has seen in many years. No doubt Kearns and Felo suck this year, but we have not received anything but bad production from Majewski, and we haven't seen Bray at all. Ryan Wagner (we traded him too) has produced more than either of them two. Then this trade deadline, he did almost nothing. Why didn't he do with Conine/Hatteberg/Weathers what he did with Lohse? No suitors? Ok, well go for the highest bid. These guys need not be on the roster next season.

His drafts have been decent but have not shown much promise yet. I don't say I hate them right now, but I wonder if he needs a better scouting department. I blame BCast for some of this as far as not forking out money for a Lincecum or the many other studs we passed on this and last year. But Krivsky shares in the blame with the scouts and CEO for not having the best draft you can get.

Now do I think he has a plan? I guess, but he surely isn't showing it to me. I will bet every dollar I have that we will not be getting any free agent highlighted in green on your chart. Not to cut down the chart, but time and time again we get dissapointed. He could have traded Dunn and none of those guys would get signed.

If that comes to fruition, would you dare say he is following through with a plan to contend now?

By the way, I love all the in depth coverage you have on all this in this thread. It is appreciated and definitely a conversation piece for us for the next few months.

[NFLman2033]

there is no doubt that Hatteberg, Conine and Weathers all should have been moved, they are not part of the future.. and when we let them go we will get nothing in return..

[Mario-Rijo]

there is no doubt that Hatteberg, Conine and Weathers all should have been moved, they are not part of the future.. and when we let them go we will get nothing in return..

You will get no arguement from me on Conine. Although he can and likely still will be dealt (he's cleared waivers for several season in a row now), what does it hurt to wait for a few more weeks and see if WK can squeeze a bit more out of those contenders? The only thing it hurts is to have Votto for a few less weeks perhaps, which is really no big deal. Sure the more AB's the better up here and the sooner the better but if him staying down for another month (from the deadline I mean) get's a better return for Conine then I am all for it.

Hatteberg and Weathers although I am not against trading I do see some value in retaining them. If you deal Weathers who do you replace his production with next year? Wouldn't you feel a bit better about '08's BP if Weathers was holding down the 7th inning? Take a look at those FA relievers what's the chances that any sign here and that they give you better production than Weathers and if they do sign Weathers just helps strengthen the pen in a lesser role.

Hatteberg makes sense for me on a whole lot of levels. What if Votto struggles, is your whole '08 season now thrown away because WK (because he will get the blame for that and he should) were too incompetent to foresee this possibility and hold unto a solid guy for that position at little cost? And for my friends who don't know, Votto will struggle and odds are he may struggle alot (more on that in a minute). If Votto doesn't struggle Hatteberg still provides good LH production off the bench and value as leadership for the young guys. And he is the type of player that I would like to have providing leadership. That part of the game is undervalued, good on-field leadership for young players is absolutely necc., the wrong leadership can be destructive for a long, long time.

Oh, the thought I had on Votto having problems at the next level. This is a tidbit from ESPN's '06 futures game blog. The analyst had this to say about him.

Joey Votto (Reds) probably put on the biggest show during BP, which is not the same as being the most impressive. Votto launched several balls into the right-field bleachers, hitting the fence at the back of the stands at least once. He does have a wide stance and a long swing, which will limit his ability to make contact going forward. At least he didn't swing and miss during BP. That's embarrassing

[Mario-Rijo]

My take on Krivsky so far:

Finding young players that other teams have given up on and finding that they are pretty talented. Phillips, Hamilton, Ross, Arroyo are all included in this and he has done a great job with this. But trading players and signing free agents are his downfall. "The trade" nominated him for worst move this organization has seen in many years. No doubt Kearns and Felo suck this year, but we have not received anything but bad production from Majewski, and we haven't seen Bray at all. Ryan Wagner (we traded him too) has produced more than either of them two.

I would have to respectfully disagree on this point in fact if you were to breakdown all his deals you might find that we won a majority of them. And IMHO we may even still win "The Trade" before it's all said and done (Daryl Thompson and Bill Bray may end up being more valuable than Fe-Lo, Wags and Kearns to not only us but anyone). Could WK have done better in that deal, absolutely he should have been more diligent in checking out any possible medical problems (Majewski and perhaps even Bray). Lesson learned I would imagine. However I am not convinced, especially in light of recent deals that they could have gotten a better package elsewhere.

His drafts have been decent but have not shown much promise yet. I don't say I hate them right now, but I wonder if he needs a better scouting department. I blame BCast for some of this as far as not forking out money for a Lincecum or the many other studs we passed on this and last year. But Krivsky shares in the blame with the scouts and CEO for not having the best draft you can get.

I won't disagree here, although I would say that Krivsky's blame on this would be of an indirect nature. He didn't draft any of these guys Chris Buckley did, however Krivsky hired him to do it so ultimately it's WK fault if Buckley isn't succesful. As far as Lincecum goes, I must admit he was one that I liked and hoped at the time that he would be (I also wanted Joba Chamberlain) the pick as opposed to Stubbs.

But Lincecum (for example) did/does have his question marks. I believe Boras was/is his agent, which says alot in and of itself. Also there were questions about his stature (about 5 foot 11 160 lbs., out of college), and his velocity comes from using every ounce of that stature. What does that mean? It means the odds are against him to pitch for very long and have the kind of success he is currently having due to the nature of the sport. I ain't saying he can't do it but that the odds are stacked against him to do it.

Plus it goes against the teams philosophy if you look at the arms they have drafted in the upper rounds (Watson, Lotzkar etc.) are guys whose arms have not been abused/overused at the previous level. Which bodes well for the health of our pitchers compared to some other systems.

Now do I think he has a plan? I guess, but he surely isn't showing it to me. I will bet every dollar I have that we will not be getting any free agent highlighted in green on your chart. Not to cut down the chart, but time and time again we get dissapointed. He could have traded Dunn and none of those guys would get signed.

If that comes to fruition, would you dare say he is following through with a plan to contend now?

If he deals Dunn and Griffey and doesn't attempt to sign at least one premium FA (a closer preferably) I would be highly disappointed. But if he fails to address the concerns of the team that would be the bigger crime. I mean to say that what does it matter how much you sign a guy for? Yeah signing a guy to a bigger deal probably means you got a guy with a reputation for being better but that doesn't mean he would.

It's sort of how I addressed the position player needs in the OF. You could pay Eric Byrnes to play LF, Hammy in CF and Bruce in RF. Or you could pay a lot less for an OF of Hammy in LF, Lofton/Hopper or Freel in CF, and Bruce in RF. Now the odds are that the Byrnes idea would net more overall production in conjunction with the rest of the lineup, but is that total improvement going to be worth all the money and years wrapped up in Byrnes as opposed to Lofton at a very modest 1 yr deal? If Lofton fails you have only lost games for one year, if Byrnes fails it could have some serious implications not just now but for years to come both in games and your ability to extend others or sign other important FA's down the road.

The only real difference would likely be the fans reaction to the deal initially, they may really be digusted with the Lofton signing but if you sign Byrnes many might declare that at least some money was spent and all is good and right with the world. What will the actual difference be in terms of money at the gate and real production on the field?

But to answer your question I would believe he is following a plan, the one that the Twins have followed for years. When's the last time they have signed a big money FA? They draft and develop and play largely with what they have and add a pivotal guy here and there to usually modest contracts. The point where I will take issue with this franchise is when they are actual contenders and do not add pieces at any cost (within reason) like the Twins are doing now. Instead the Twins continue to subtract $$$'s (dealing Castillo at the dealine was an awful way to compete now). My hope is that our owner will dish out the money then. To spend big dollars right now is likely pretty fruitless currently.

However I would say that he has tried to deal for some relief help and develop them but it hasn't worked. To just be & remain competitive (code word for shooting par or for us baseball fans being in it but not dominant) he must find a back end of the bullpen and if it costs dollars in the offseason he better do it. He may be able to deal for those arms but again if not spend the money or see ya later bye.

By the way, I love all the in depth coverage you have on all this in this thread. It is appreciated and definitely a conversation piece for us for the next few months.

Thanks, and this has been an interesting conversation. But I still have the pitchers to do and that will help give us an overall picture of the offseason to come.

[NFLman2033]

You will get no arguement from me on Conine. Although he can and likely still will be dealt (he's cleared waivers for several season in a row now), what does it hurt to wait for a few more weeks and see if WK can squeeze a bit more out of those contenders? The only thing it hurts is to have Votto for a few less weeks perhaps, which is really no big deal. Sure the more AB's the better up here and the sooner the better but if him staying down for another month (from the deadline I mean) get's a better return for Conine then I am all for it.

Hatteberg and Weathers although I am not against trading I do see some value in retaining them. If you deal Weathers who do you replace his production with next year? Wouldn't you feel a bit better about '08's BP if Weathers was holding down the 7th inning? Take a look at those FA relievers what's the chances that any sign here and that they give you better production than Weathers and if they do sign Weathers just helps strengthen the pen in a lesser role.

Hatteberg makes sense for me on a whole lot of levels. What if Votto struggles, is your whole '08 season now thrown away because WK (because he will get the blame for that and he should) were too incompetent to foresee this possibility and hold unto a solid guy for that position at little cost? And for my friends who don't know, Votto will struggle and odds are he may struggle alot (more on that in a minute). If Votto doesn't struggle Hatteberg still provides good LH production off the bench and value as leadership for the young guys. And he is the type of player that I would like to have providing leadership. That part of the game is undervalued, good on-field leadership for young players is absolutely necc., the wrong leadership can be destructive for a long, long time.

Oh, the thought I had on Votto having problems at the next level. This is a tidbit from ESPN's '06 futures game blog. The analyst had this to say about him.

i will agree with the Hatteberg statement, except for the fact that we already have a LH 1st baseman in Votto, so he is redundant to keep.

but Weathers.. oh hell no I don't want him back.. he is having a nice season this year, but i really don't expect him to keep it up much longer