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Thread: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

  1. #46
    B/S Leader Trendy Bastard's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Maybe they don't, but there's a ton of said players. I can't do it at work but there's a ton of players who have said they go in and it's a mentality of losing. I'm not sure how many were complete rebuilds at that time.

    I mean, the Cubs had just brought in a new manager last year in which the culture and everything had supposedly changed. They were still a terrible team. It's not a question of they go in thinking they'll lose, they think things will change and be better, but when things get tough, unless they have that fortitude, they kind of just quit.
    They were bad for the first few months. They actually played pretty well down the stretch. I believe they were around .500 after that bad start.
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  2. #47

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendy Bastard View Post
    If mach was right, the red and white Sox would still be in a drought
    The Red Sox had a history of being a playoff team, and actually changed their culture when they won it. If anything that proves my point.


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  3. #48
    B/S Leader Trendy Bastard's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Okay, what about the other color of socks then?
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  4. #49

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    They picked up Williams a few years before who changed things up a bit, no?

    I'm not sure the point. I never said the Cubs culture couldn't change, just that it needed it to be, and it's up to Theo. I think he's got a fine plan too.


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  5. #50

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendy Bastard View Post
    Lol who said you were off topic?
    It was indicated by Leon the great.

  6. #51

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    On a side note I just ordered this bad boy.



    I just love old baseball caps and this one's a beaut.
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  7. #52
    B/S Leader Trendy Bastard's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    They picked up Williams a few years before who changed things up a bit, no?

    I'm not sure the point. I never said the Cubs culture couldn't change, just that it needed it to be, and it's up to Theo. I think he's got a fine plan too.
    Maybe i was drunk, i won't admit that i was, nor will i admit that i am now, but from the post or two i did read, it seemed you implied that in order to change a culture, hit had to win a ws.

    I now think you were just saying you had to win consistently. While i think that's true, I also think that Leo had a solid point.

    The overhaul that this organization has gone through really is from top to bottom. Owners, font office, manager, philosophy, ballpark.... There isn't a single thing about how this ballclub operates that's in the same fashion that previous regimes operated.

    If you are a major league ballplayer, there isn't a single reason you should under perform because of a losing history. Weak minded players, maybe. Like Milton Bradley.

    Basically what I'm saying is that the the culture has changed. Just not into a confident one, yet.
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  8. #53
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prynce View Post
    What I'm saying is I don't think this managerial move is going to bring them any holy grails like the media seems to already be hyping up towards. They had a great manager and a great team in 2008 that I really thought had a good chance at at least making it to the NLCS with all the talent that they had that year but only got swept. Joe Maddon is already calling playoffs and world series. Kudos to him if he can but there's a losing culture that's hindering those chances. It's like asking Belichick to take the Raiders to the playoffs.
    Piniella was brought in because he was a big name manager. However he thought it be a nice spot to ride into the sunset. Sure he would like to win, but he was not expecting pressure to do so. He also wasn't considered one of the best managers in the game. The most comparable situation to Maddon is when Dusty Baker got hired in 2003. He came here to win a World Series just like Joe is now.

    Not sure what losing culture you're talking about. The people playing for the Cubs now weren't here for all of that, and a lot of them expect to win. Sure you can speak in generalities but have you heard these guys talk? Your Raiders example is absolutely terrible because ownership hasn't changed other than the son taking over for the father. Cubs went from the one of the smallest front offices in baseball that despised sabermetrics to one of the largest that embraces everything. They also went from one of the worst farm systems to the best one in baseball according to places like Baseball Prospectus, Baseball America, ect. The Cubs have never been this healthy as an entire organization in their history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    if Prynce is talking about the culture, I think he's got a point. At some point losing just permeates a franchise and it doesn't matter how skilled the skipper in charge is. Numerous players have talked about that, and it's possible that even with the ongoing overhaul and such that they still haven't shaken anything.

    The Raiders are run completely differently now and suck even more than they used to. It'll be interesting to see if Maddon has the ability to use the situation to change everyone's mindset.
    Mindset has already changed. Cubs traded people at the deadline like everyone knew, and unlike the previous two years that started nose dives the guys responded by winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prynce View Post
    Yes like I said they have a losing culture hindering them. The level of pessimism that already exists hits the players and even the new ones.

    The Raiders are in a similar situation. I remember Sapp saying that he used to tell fellow NFL players to not go to Oakland because of how dysfunctional the locker room is and how much they didn't believe that they could win.
    Players are not pessimistic at all right now. Most are really excited because they know it's finally time to win. It wasn't like it was a secret what Theo and Jed were doing their first couple years here. They gutted the team in order to bottom out. They collected high draft picks and got guys like Albert Almora, Kris Bryant, and Kyle Schwarber. Now that the farm system is stocked with oodles of talent they are going to invest in the major league team. The MLB team has a bunch of cost controlled young position players, a really good bullpen already (not quite the Royals level but it's full of a bunch of young cheap hard throwing guys), and a rotation that features Jake Arrieta and Kyle Hendricks. They now plan to add some elite starting pitching in free agency (which the cost control of the lineup allows them), and hope that Baez, Soler, Bryant, Alcantara, Russell, Almora, Schwarber, ect. will fill in around the now established Rizzo and Castro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Maybe they don't, but there's a ton of said players. I can't do it at work but there's a ton of players who have said they go in and it's a mentality of losing. I'm not sure how many were complete rebuilds at that time.

    I mean, the Cubs had just brought in a new manager last year in which the culture and everything had supposedly changed. They were still a terrible team. It's not a question of they go in thinking they'll lose, they think things will change and be better, but when things get tough, unless they have that fortitude, they kind of just quit.
    The Cubs were a terrible team that improved as the year went on. But the fact you state this shows your lack of knowledge of the Cubs rebuild. Renteria was not brought in to win games last year. The Cubs were not ready to win, and they did not try to win. He was brought in to help Rizzo and Castro rebound after things got really bad with Sveum. Theo/Jed wanted a clubhouse that would allow the young guys to flourish, and by all accounts Renteria did everything they asked in getting that clubhouse turned around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prynce View Post
    The Cubs are still the Cubs no matter who has been ran out of town. They still play in Chicago. They have the same fans. Their past failures are still there, hence so is the expectation of failure. Their identity remains intact and just bringing in new players doesn't automatically mean a change in that identity.

    I agree with Mach that it can alter a mindset and trigger a fresh start in culture.

    The Cleveland Browns for example, moved to Baltimore and adopted an entirely new identity. Four years later they win the Superbowl and twelve years after that they win another while the "new" Browns started out as a brand new team in 1999, players, owners, coaches and all and even had the #1 overall pick in the draft. They however have so far only restarted and continued the failures that the original Browns abandoned.
    Do you really think Anthony Rizzo worries about the 2003 Cubs when he's taking at bats? I can't even fathom how ridiculous you sound. Fans care about the history of the Cubs. They are the ones who worry about the renovations to Wrigley and curses. After the last game of the year Rizzo was asked if he felt nostalgic looking around at the old Wrigley for the last time. He said nope and was looking forward to all the modern amenities they'd soon have.

    Theo and Jed set out to rebuild the Cubs and have done it faster than their own expectations. Even Theo said they've done a 5-6 years worth of rebuilding in 3 years so far. The Cubs are on the verge of being very good. Not all their prospects will pan out, but that's why they stock piled so many. If one guy misses there's another one right behind him. Not to mention the Cubs have stock piled power bats at a time when power is down throughout baseball.
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  9. #54
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    This thread didn't age well for anyone who doesn't have an anthropomorphic milkshake on his avatar or isn't a self proclaimed bastard.
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  10. #55

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    building is why they were bad, but they were still bad.

    In any case, I think what Theo does will have a much larger impact than anything Maddon can or will do and that will be the biggest determinant of whether the Cubs remain losers or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    They picked up Williams a few years before who changed things up a bit, no?

    I'm not sure the point. I never said the Cubs culture couldn't change, just that it needed it to be, and it's up to Theo. I think he's got a fine plan too.
    I dunno, I don't feel these were bad takes at all.


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  11. #56
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I dunno, I don't feel these were bad takes at all.
    Looking at those posts in a bubble, perhaps.

    But the over-arching conversation was that they won't win because of a "losing culture". They won.
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  12. #57

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo View Post
    Looking at those posts in a bubble, perhaps.

    But the over-arching conversation was that they won't win because of a "losing culture". They won.
    If that's what you got from my posts you were projecting and not reading them correctly.


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  13. #58
    Administrator HollywoodLeo's Avatar
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    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    If that's what you got from my posts you were projecting and not reading them correctly.
    You weren't the only one I was responding to in here.

    In fact, you came in kind of late.

    But you did in a post you didn't quote blow off the whole "culture" thing by begging the question stating that the Red Sox were able to win in spite of a "losing culture" by winning the World Series, which obviously means they changed the culture.
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  14. #59

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo View Post
    You weren't the only one I was responding to in here.

    In fact, you came in kind of late.

    But you did in a post you didn't quote blow off the whole "culture" thing by begging the question stating that the Red Sox were able to win in spite of a "losing culture" by winning the World Series, which obviously means they changed the culture.
    The Sahwx had obviously changed their culture in the few seasons before the WS. They openly shat on the curse before they even won.


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  15. #60

    Re: Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    The Red Sox had a history of being a playoff team, and actually changed their culture when they won it. If anything that proves my point.
    I see which post you were talking about. I phrased this poorly at the time, but I meant that they had changed things before even winning the WS.


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