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Thread: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

  1. #76
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Already five more wins and an average of 5,000 more fans than last year

  2. #77
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by love_that_reefer View Post
    Already five more wins and an average of 5,000 more fans than last year
    Woooo! Great thing to hang your hat on at the end of the day. Five more wins!!!!!! Maybe if this were football that'd actually mean something.

    5,000 more people saw them get their record 20th losing season.

    Are you ready to admit the Pirates management sucks and baseballs financial structure makes it near impossible for retarded management to compete without any money?

    Didn't think you would be. Keep smoking up friend. The brain cells aren't doing you any good anyways.

    7-4 loss to the Astros tonight. woooo!!!!

  3. #78
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabu88 View Post
    Are you ready to admit the Pirates management sucks and baseballs financial structure makes it near impossible for retarded management to compete without any money?
    Why would I admit something that isn't true? Pirates management has this team going in the right direction and just had another good draft. Stop crying because it's blurring your vision. Improvement is all around. An average of 5,000 more fans = more money. More wins = recruiting tool. All good things!

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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by love_that_reefer View Post
    Why would I admit something that isn't true? Pirates management has this team going in the right direction and just had another good draft. Stop crying because it's blurring your vision. Improvement is all around. An average of 5,000 more fans = more money. More wins = recruiting tool. All good things!
    A recruiting tool? This isn't college football. I'm sure that sub-.500 record will help persuade free agents to come to Pittsburgh. No doubt. So silly of me.

    Just like I was sure Clint Hurdle being the manager would help them bring in free agent connections from Texas and Colorado. Where would this team be without somebody like Matt Diaz? If that's what Clint brings to the table, I'm betting on World Series in 2012.

    Five thousand more fans a game? WOOOOO!!!! The Pirates have a history of using their extra revenue on payroll. (The joke is bolded underlined and italicized) I'm sure we can make you a baseball cap to go along with your "First Place in July Championship" hat.

    "FIVE THOUSAND MORE FANS CHAMPIONSHIP, 2011"


    edit: Pirates losing to the last place Astros 8-1

  5. #80
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Yes, a recruiting tool. I'm glad you see this isn't college football. That's one thing you're right about so hopefully you can build off that! The Pirates improving W/L record will attract more free agents to sign there, just like every other MLB team. Players will be more inclined to play for Hurdle after seeing what he has done with the Rockies and now the Pirates. But nooooooooooooooooo, it has to be one year or bust for you! Hurdle sucks now because of Matt Diaz under-performing!! Great logic at work here!

    The Pirates do have a history but the key word is history. The Pirates have spent more money on the draft and scouting than any other team the past couple of years and don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. By the Pirates doing so, they have built quite the farm and it will pay dividends down the road but that's far too gloomy of a road for you to see. You'd rather just sit in denial. The Pirates can use the extra revenue to spend on better free agents. More wins, more money but yet you still want to say the Pirates have done a lousy job this season. Keep your head in those dark clouds because you are WRONG!! I visit many baseball forums and you are definitely in the minority amongst Pirates fans.

    GODDAMN THE PIRATES SHOULD HAVE KEPT LAROCHE, YOUNG AND DUKE!! WHY TRY AND GET BETTER AND SUCCEED IN DOING SO??

    Tried finding Randy Quaid videos from Major League 2 since you're on this video kick but can't find any He's exactly who comes to mind when I see your posts!
    Last edited by love_that_reefer; 08-31-2011 at 04:09 AM.

  6. #81
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by love_that_reefer View Post
    The Pirates improving W/L record will attract more free agents to sign there, just like every other MLB team. Players will be more inclined to play for Hurdle after seeing what he has done with the Rockies and now the Pirates. But nooooooooooooooooo, it has to be one year or bust for you! Hurdle sucks now because of Matt Diaz under-performing!! Great logic at work here!

    The Pirates do have a history but the key word is history. The Pirates have spent more money on the draft and scouting than any other team the past couple of years and don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. By the Pirates doing so, they have built quite the farm and it will pay dividends down the road but that's far too gloomy of a road for you to see. You'd rather just sit in denial. The Pirates can use the extra revenue to spend on better free agents. More wins, more money but yet you still want to say the Pirates have done a lousy job this season. Keep your head in those dark clouds because you are WRONG!! I visit many baseball forums and you are definitely in the minority amongst Pirates fans.

    GODDAMN THE PIRATES SHOULD HAVE KEPT LAROCHE, YOUNG AND DUKE!! WHY TRY AND GET BETTER AND SUCCEED IN DOING SO??
    What Hurdle did with the Rockies? One successful season out of eight?

    A career record of almost 100 games under .500?

    This part of your argument is based on assumptions. How is Hurdle's ability to bring in players any different than say a Jim Tracy?

    Why didn't a bunch of Dodgers players come to Pittsburgh?

    What Texas and Colorado players have come to Pittsburgh?

    How do you know that Hurdle will bring players to the team because of his attitude?

    What have the Pirates done over the last 20 years other than lose more games than they have won?

    What do they have to offer to free agents? It surely isn't more money than any other clubs. It surely isn't stability...they've traded away nearly every player they've signed. A chance to start? Okay, but players looking for a place to play somewhere usually aren't the desired A level players. If they were good enough, they'd be starting on a team already. The Pirates sure aren't going to be contenders any time soon, so that's certainly not a reason for coming to Pittsburgh. Going from 27th in attendance to 19th isn't amazingly going to get more players to come to Pittsburgh. The extra say 10 million dollars they get in revenue...well that'll surely make a difference

    You're so caught up on the Pirates improving their record from the historically bad season of last year. Here's the point...the Pirates are still a HORRIBLE team. The "feel good" story is over. Get over it. The team is now TEN games under .500. That doesn't seem to be going anywhere but down.

    "Herp Derp the Pirates improved on their record from last year"

    "They finally broke the .500 barrier, eh?"

    "Well...they won like 73 games this year....and they won about 25 games after the all star break"

    "Oh......oh."

    I'm happy that the Pirates are spending a lot of money on the draft. From all accounts, they seem to be doing well in this area. Here's the inherit problem. Since 2007, Neil Huntingtons drafts have failed to produce any big league caliber players. Obviously time is needed, but Huntington has already screwed the pooch on guys like Sanchez and Alvarez. That's an issue in scouting and development...something you mindlessly defend the Pirates on for no reason.

    It'll be sweet to see the Pirates sign pinch hitter X to a 2 million dollar deal next year. Maybe they'll also sign a shortstop or something for some overpriced amount of 6 million...have him hit .220 then dump him.

    You're basing an entire argument around trying to be right and it's getting downright silly. You have backed it up with nothing but assumptions, magical players, and emoticons. Where are your facts? I have shown you facts. You continue to emote and tell me Garrett Jones is the future. I really don't know what else to say other than to just sit there and take your medicine...oh and you're clueless.

  7. #82
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    ps.... I think it's darling that your buddies from other message boards said things about the Pirates That's probably the biggest indicator that everything you have said is 100% accurate. Why didn't you say so? I would have just succumbed at that point.

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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Hurdle has been in Pittsburgh one season!! What free agents was he supposed to bring with him in year one? What exactly are you asking of him in one year? If it's team improvement, then you should be happy but god knows that won't happen. This part of your argument is based on irrational thought most like the rest of your "argument". Hurdle in year one has done quite well given what he has been dealt and the players love him!

    The Pirates will have more money to offer free agents thanks to filling seats and getting better this season. I have already explained how the Pirates have made this team more attractive to impending free agents so I'm not going to repeat myself. You can simply scroll up and it's clear as day but I guess not in doom and gloom land. You're completely wrong!

    No, here's the point! The Pirates have improved. The Pirates have made more money and attracted more fans. The Pirates continue to do well in the draft. Add all those points up and it comes to one and only one conclusion, THE PIRATES ARE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION!!!!!!! How you are the only Pirate fan I have encountered that can't see it is beyond me.

    "Derp, derp, why should the Pirates even try? They're just going to lose"

    "Oh the Pirates improved in every aspect? They still suck"

    "Just keep the same players! Not like anything will change, derp derp"

    See, I can't make ludicrous paraphrasing too!!

    So since because in the four years that Huntington's been drafting that no players have made an impact yet Huntington is a failure? WOW! Great logic again!! And how has Alvarez and Sanchez been ruined by Huntington? Alvarez is definitely big league caliber, he's just in his third professional season. I don't mindlessly defend the Pirates, I have a right mind to do so and the proof is there if you care to see it. You just want to stay in 2005 and proclaim that everything sucks. Time to move on and live in the now!

    You have shown me facts?? Where are they??? You have shown me no facts!! I am the one showing facts like records, players and figures. All you give are stupid paraphrasings, dumb hat references, irrational logic and old Pittsburgh loser mentality! Fact is you are the one throwing out nothing but assumptions. Assumptions are the only basis for your "argument". My facts are clear, you assumptions are too but they aren't correct. How am I "trying" to be right? How am I even wrong? I said the Pirates would improve and they did. I said the Pirates are heading in the right direction and they are. You can't even show where I'm wrong. You're the only person on earth to call players better than LaRoche, Duke and Young as "magical Players". Only thing downright silly is your inability to see that the Pirates have improved and are heading in the right direction.
    Last edited by love_that_reefer; 08-31-2011 at 07:55 AM.

  9. #84
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabu88 View Post
    That's probably the biggest indicator that everything you have said is 100% accurate.
    No the biggest indicator is that I AM right and have actual facts to back it up. That's what I find darling...that and your complete denial about the Pirates heading in the right direction I will never share your attitude towards improvement!
    Last edited by love_that_reefer; 08-31-2011 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #85
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Change "party" for "ball team" for Sabu



    More wins, more fans, more money, better drafting=failure. Wait, what?

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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    Oh boy.

    It gets extremely difficult to read through your poorly structured responses, but hopefully I can help you improve upon the C's you got in high school.

    Here are the facts....

    The Pirates are not ready to contend. In order for the Pirates to contend on a consistent basis, they will have to draft and develop a core group of players. Once this core group is established, they need to sign free agent players that will help the team fill in the remaining gaps.

    Now with that being said, how would we define a contending team? Let's look at the Tampa Bay Rays. They have made a habit over the years of having great drafts, developing their players, then trading their homegrown players for prospects after they become too expensive. The idea of this process is that players they have drafted or acquired would be able to take the place of the players they lose. This cycle continues.

    Now, the problem with this idea is that if the team either: A) Drafts poorly B) Trades poorly C) Suffers injuries D) Fails to develop their players, they will find competing much more difficult than say a team like the Yankees who can go out and buy an ace like C.C. Sabathia.

    What most likely happens in these cases is that despite a team like Tampa doing nearly everything right, they usually don't have the star power to get the job done in the playoffs.

    History PROVES that high payroll teams with competent management usually find themselves: A) Contending on a consistent basis B) Winning world series titles.

    Let's take a look at the world series winners from 2000-2010

    2000 - New York Yankees (1st in Payroll $92,500,000)
    2001 - Arizona Diamondbacks (8th in payroll 81,000,000)
    2002 - Anaheim Angels (15th 61,000,000)
    2003 - Florida Marlins (25th 49,000,000)
    2004 - Boston Red Sox (2nd 125,000,000)
    2005 - Chicago White Sox (13th 75,000,000)
    2006 - St. Louis Cardinals (11th 88,000,000)
    2007 - Boston Red Sox (2nd 143,000,000)
    2008 - Philadelphia Phillies (12th 98,000,000)
    2009 - New York Yankees (1st 200,000,000)
    2010 - San Francisco Giants (10th 97,000,000)

    Average Salary of World Series Winners: $100,000,000
    Average Payroll Position of World Series Winners: 9th

    Do you notice a trend here?

    The lowest payroll team that won the series was the Florida Marlins. What happened to that team after the 2003 season you may ask?

    A bunch of near .500 and sub .500 records. The highest they finished in their division since then was 2nd.

    Being a low payroll team, they were unable to sustain their player development, drafting, etc. They, in fact, had to dump several of their high salary players in what management called "market correction".
    The point being:
    They aren't consistently competitive.

    Now what I want from the Pirates is for them to be consistently competitive.

    Again, being consistently competitive means I want my team to A) Compete B) Have a chance for a world series title every year.

    Yankees fans...Red Sox fans. They ask that from their team every year. Why can't I demand the same? Baseball economics gives these teams an unfair advantage. Period.

    How can the Pirates be competitive?

    1) They need to draft well
    2) They need to develop their players
    3) They need to scout well, both their opponents and potential free agents
    4) They need to be fundamentally sound
    5) They need to be able to trade efficiently
    6) They need to be able to sign SOME of their top end players to deals

    Now let's evaluate each and every one of these criteria. After we do this, maybe you will understand the pessimism I have moving forward. This extends not only to the Pirates franchise but the economic structure of MLB in general.

    1) They need to draft well

    I would grade Huntington's draft with a pretty solid grade so far. The Pirates have spent money on prospects, no doubt. They have consistently been near the top end of spending on drafts the last few seasons.

    Before praise can be shelled out, we need to keep in mind that the difference between the top and bottom of draft spending is separated by a few million. The discrepancy between MLB payroll towers over drafting.

    Positives:

    Huntington was able to not only sign Gerrit Cole, but also ink Josh Bell to a pretty lucrative deal this season

    Negatives:

    The Pirates reached on Tony Sanchez, aiming for sign-ability over anything. The same could maybe be said for Gerrit Cole. Bundy was considered by most pundits as the better prospect.

    The Pirates missed on high-end prospect Miguel Sano because of a difference of around 100,000$.


    What can we conclude from Huntington's drafts? That it's certainly a mixed bag.


    He has spent money on players, but completely flubbed some picks in the process. Tanner Schneppers and Tony Sanchez come to mind again.

    Through his four years with the organization, none of his guys have made an impact on the major league club. At least not yet.

    His farm team ranked 19th in Baseball America at the start of this season...certainly not something a team that consistently drafts in the top end of the draft should be satisfied with.

    None of his batters have established themselves as impact positional prospects, with maybe the exception of Bell. One thing that I disagree with is the reaching for five-tool speedy CF type prospects (Mel Rojas Jr comes to mind) instead of guys with power who can flat-out hit. The Pirates minor league system is devoid of any legitimate power.

    The Pirates have a few decent arms in their system, but IIRC, even Cam Bonifay (the Pirates GM before David Littlefield) filled the organization with cant-miss pitching prospects like Bobby Bradley, Sean Burnett, Kris Benson, and Clint Johnston. We know how that turned out.

    I hate the term "drafting well" even though I have used it here. The draft is really a crap shoot. What really determines the success of the draft is how the Pirates DEVELOP their players, which brings me to point #2.

    2) They need to develop their players

    Time is a factor here obviously as Huntington's drafts are still working their way through the system, but the small sample size I DO have suggests that the Pirates management is not at the developmental level that teams like the D-Rays are at.

    Pedro Alvarez is a shining example. Huntington foolishly brought him up too early last year and he continues to struggle. The holes in his swing, something that could have been rectified by a full season in AAA, are still evident.

    How am I supposed to trust an organization that completely mishandles their most valuable prospect for the sake of job security?

    Let's take a look at Neil Walker, a Littlefield draft pick who felt unwanted by Huntington's regime. A ongoing news story throughout the first few years of Huntington focused on the exile of certain Littlefield prospects. Not really a welcome atmosphere.

    The Pirates didn't know what the hell to do with Walker. They first had him at catcher, then they moved him to third base, then they moved him to 2nd base and put him in a defensive position of emphasis at the major league level with little to no experience. He still struggles defensively with range and speed at the position.

    Again, how am I to trust this organization when they fill their 2nd base position with a guy with almost no experience? A player, by all accounts, they had no interest in?

    Brad Lincoln, a highly touted prospect, was brought up too early last year, again for the sake of job security.

    Lincoln at the time had only developed two pitches. A fastball and a curveball. Many experts believed that in order to be successful at the major league level, Lincoln would have to develop his change-up.

    Lincoln came to the majors last year and was shelled. The reason? He was too predictable.

    Why not have Lincoln stay in AAA and develop his change-up last year? The Pirates certainly weren't in contention. Mind-boggling move to say the least.

    Huntington has given me nothing but concerned from his player development team.

    3) They need to scout well. Opponents and pending free agents.

    Here's the big one for you.

    Scouting is probably THE most important tool a major league baseball organization has.

    Scouts can find gem prospects, identify ML players who can help their team win, and realize tendencies of opponents.

    Part of scouting is obviously finding free agents that fit your mold.

    Here is my stance. Here has always been my stance. It would be foolish for the Pirates to spend money on players that would provide little to no help to them right now. Why?

    A) The Pirates aren't ready to compete. The time to compete would be when the Pirates have established a core that could fill about half of their major league roster. Once this core is in place, they may then
    B) The players the Pirates would be able to obtain would provide LITTLE in the wins column because the quality of said players would be marginal at best

    C) Instead of spending 5 million or so on a player that wont add much to the team in terms of wins, I'd rather the team save that money and invest it either into the minor league system or the major league team when they are ready to compete.

    In summary, dumping crap and adding more crap really isn't going to do much. We've been over this over and over again. Huntington has shown that he:

    A) Overpays for veteran free agents
    B) Doesn't get much value from those players

    Let's use the last two years as examples
    2011
    1B Lyle Overbay 5 million WAR -0.8
    OF Matt Diaz 2 million, 2 years WAR -0.6
    SP Kevin Correia 4 million, 2 years WAR 0.2

    The Pirates spent 11 million this season alone for what amounted to -1.2 wins. Would it not be wiser to have not spent that money and invest it in the minor league system or future teams? Why would any GM give that kind of dough to those players?

    Correia had a horrible season the year before. His numbers career wise have mirrored those of Pirates pitchers they released in the past.

    Matt Diaz is a soft hitting outfielder with marginal defense. The Pirates have plenty of those already.

    Lyle Overbay's numbers had declined for the last three seasons in a hitters ballpark surrounded by power bats in Toronto. Let's give him FIVE MILLION.

    All of this for what amounted to -1 wins over replacement level players.

    2010 was more of the same. Guys like Ryan Church and Aki Iwamura were brought in on overpriced contracts with injury histories and floundered.

    What's the point of wasting money on these shitty players? The team is not ready to compete. The Pirates have to SAVE that money so when they are ABLE to compete they can actually financially keep their team together for a season or two. They don't have the luxury of giving their players 120$million contracts like the Yankees.

    Baseball Flaw: A pending free agent has no reason to come to Pittsburgh as they can't offer them the most money

    Pirates flaw: The team has failed to be competitive for nearly 20 years

    All Huntington has done has been filtering out crap and adding more crap for obscene dollar amounts. Fun. Getting sick of writing, so I'll complete this at a further date. Sit back son. Enjoy the ride.

  12. #87
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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates

    And you say I have poorly structured responses?? Good lord!! Guess I'll start at the beginning

    I agree with you, the Pirates are not ready to contend. Not yet. They are in fact improving though, something we disagree on. Tampa Bay also doesn't really rely on trading their star players for prospects. They let their star players sign elsewhere and collect draft picks but first they do sign their star players to extensions early. Your problem is that you think the Rays are the only team that focuses on signing their star players early, focuses on the draft and player development. They aren't! Every team is starting to follow this format, even the Red Sox and Yankees. Teams are developing their farm systems like we haven't seen since Branch Rickey teams in the 30's, 40's and 50's. Look at the Indians, Royals, Marlins, etc.

    I am completely skipping your World Series payroll rant because it has nothing to do with what we were talking about. You have completely changed the subject and as I have clearly explained above and in the MLB Salary Cap thread (complete bullshit), small market teams are competing and following the Rays format. Most smart fans realize the Rays process takes a while just as it will the Pirates. Besides, none of this has anything to do with what the Pirates need to do to get back to winning ways. I am not getting into another salary cap discussion for no reason.

    You are completely wrong about the Marlins by the way. They have never had a problem with their player development, drafting or scouting. Their only problem is their terrible owner. They have five seasons above .500 and have been contenders since '03. But none of this has anything to do with the Pirates so I shall move on.

    How can the Pirates be competitive?

    1) They need to draft well
    2) They need to develop their players
    3) They need to scout well, both their opponents and potential free agents
    4) They need to be fundamentally sound
    5) They need to be able to trade efficiently
    6) They need to be able to sign SOME of their top end players to deals
    Finally, something that actually pertains to the argument at hand, the Pirates!!
    1. Under Huntington, so far so good!
    2. Again, so far so good.
    3. No team has put more money into scouting and it is paying off in every way
    4. That's where cutting the shitty players comes in
    5. That is definitely something Huntington needs to work on but has made good trades like Nate McLouth and Dotel
    6. McCutchen will be signed to an extension saving the Pirates money in the process. They have already locked up Walker and Tabata.

    Tony Sanchez will be the starting catcher in 2013

    I know you somehow think Alvarez is somehow ruined but he's not. He was rushed but still cranked out 16 HRs while being rushed. I agree he needs to fix his approach at the plate and also think he needs to be moved to another position. Think Alex Gordon.

    Here is my stance. Here has always been my stance. It would be foolish for the Pirates to spend money on players that would provide little to no help to them right now. Why?

    A) The Pirates aren't ready to compete. The time to compete would be when the Pirates have established a core that could fill about half of their major league roster. Once this core is in place, they may then
    B) The players the Pirates would be able to obtain would provide LITTLE in the wins column because the quality of said players would be marginal at best

    C) Instead of spending 5 million or so on a player that wont add much to the team in terms of wins, I'd rather the team save that money and invest it either into the minor league system or the major league team when they are ready to compete.
    Here's where you miss the biggest picture. The Pirates just can't sit on their money and hope for the best. That's not how you make money. The Pirates cut the dead weight and spent money this past offseason. What was the result? A 10+ game improvement, national media exposure for the first time in forever and more importantly, MORE MONEY! There's the old adage "It takes money to make money" for a reason, it's true and as a business owner I know it's fact! The Pirates have to be wiser with their money no doubt but just sitting on it is not an option. You have to fill a team somehow.

    Something else you fail to see is that the Pirates have to be careful in who they sign. They can't afford to give up prospects for Type A and B free agents. That's why they need to take chances on guys like Overbay and Correia and hope they play well so they can flip them for future plans. Maybe even hope they climb into Type B status.

    I said at the time Correia got paid too much but he was cheaper than Duke was going to cost and pitched better than Duke. Correia fell off in the second half and eventually got hurt but it wasn't a bust. Diaz was cheap and fill a need. The Pirates were one of the worst teams in baseball against left handed pitching. They thought Diaz and Jones would platoon in RF. It was a smart move that didn't cost a lot of money, it just didn't pan out. They once again got rid of the dead weight, this time via trade as Diaz is now a Brave again. The Pirates were hoping for a 2010 Aubrey Huff when they signed Overbay. Didn't pan out and they cut his ass too. If it would have panned out, they could have traded him for prospects. What did all those moves have in common??? They didn't hurt the Pirates in the long term which is extremely key!! No one is blocked and the Pirates aren't hurting financially because of it. The Pirates also added by subtracting the terrible players that were due raises which I think had an impact in that clubhouse. The hiring of Hurdle was a great move too as he is great with young guys and is a good hitting coach. I know you expected Hurdle to magically bring over free agents from the Rockies and Rangers in his first year but the problem is there were none to bring over. Garrett Atkins was brought over but I have a feeling that's not what you meant. Your thoughts on Hurdle are completely misguided.

    Saving money is not going to help the Pirates improve, also known as making money. Improvement=money. Improvement also attracts other players to want to play there. This year was just a stepping stone in the right direction. As the Pirates continue to improve, players are going to take notice and want to play with guys like McCutchen and Walker. I know you have a hard time believing that somehow but go look at teams that are following the same formula. You just want to bitch and moan about the Pirates not being able to spend like the Yankees and Red Sox. Well boo fucking hoo, hardly any team can but that doesn't mean they don't try and spend money to improve their team. Players don't want to sign with teams headed backwards. That is not the Pirates.

    All Huntington has done is get this team headed in the right direction. He's far from perfect but when he came in he scratched everything and started over. The Pirates are just in the early stages of seeing things turn around. Everyone can see it but you! We can continue to keep going back and forth but I think it's clear we no one is changing the other's mind. I don't really like writing novels and really don't like wasting time with the only Pirates/baseball fan who doesn't think the Pirates are heading in the right direction so I won't.

    More wins, more fans, more money, better drafting=failure. Wait, what?
    Last edited by love_that_reefer; 09-01-2011 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: The Contending Pittsburgh Pirates


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